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8 2014-10-30 00:11:00 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: that seems to have worked. thanks for the idea
9 2014-10-30 00:11:27 <Luke-Jr> side note, shouldn't it be bitcoin-cli now?
10 2014-10-30 00:12:27 <coryfields_> ?
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27 2014-10-30 00:27:53 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: bitcoind isn't a JSON-RPC client anymore
28 2014-10-30 00:29:25 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: erm, did you s/bitcoin-cli/bitcoind/ my text above in your head? :)
29 2014-10-30 00:29:56 <Luke-Jr> haha, probably
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32 2014-10-30 00:30:06 <Luke-Jr> I did actually open a file, maybe I saw it there
33 2014-10-30 00:30:27 <Luke-Jr> ah, yep. I was suggesting a wrapper on the wrong one :D
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66 2014-10-30 01:14:35 <BlueMatt> yay! coinbase just stole my money trying to pay a merchant
67 2014-10-30 01:14:38 <BlueMatt> why am I not surprised
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101 2014-10-30 01:41:21 <Luke-Jr> ugh, PR 5100
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158 2014-10-30 03:11:12 <Luke-Jr> Can anyone help get #5106 and/or #5103 merged? I can dedicate some time myself to "trade" an in-depth review of some other PR that needs it? :p
159 2014-10-30 03:11:21 <Luke-Jr> (these are dependencies of block proposal support)
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163 2014-10-30 03:13:45 * Luke-Jr trying to help stick to wumpus's planned 0.10 schedule :p
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168 2014-10-30 03:18:58 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, Ctx ?
169 2014-10-30 03:19:15 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: ConTeXtual
170 2014-10-30 03:19:28 <Luke-Jr> as opposed to the non-contextual functions
171 2014-10-30 03:19:33 <phantomcircuit> right
172 2014-10-30 03:19:40 <phantomcircuit> is that used anywhere else?
173 2014-10-30 03:19:45 <phantomcircuit> if not then maybe just
174 2014-10-30 03:19:49 <phantomcircuit> Contextual instead of Ctx
175 2014-10-30 03:20:11 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I don't believe so - before they were always just part of the action function
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177 2014-10-30 03:20:33 <phantomcircuit> currently trying to debug code in which all variables are single letters, so maybe im being a bit picky here...
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181 2014-10-30 03:23:47 <phantomcircuit> also im pretty sure the logic in CtxCheckBlock around the version numbers can be safely simplified to check for a specific block height
182 2014-10-30 03:24:14 <phantomcircuit> since to go backwards you would have to fork from the first block with version=2
183 2014-10-30 03:24:46 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: you're considering that CtxCheckBlock is used on ancient blocks?
184 2014-10-30 03:25:01 <Luke-Jr> and may be desirable to extend in the future for new versions
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187 2014-10-30 03:26:13 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yes i agree, im just saying that the existing logic is identical to requiring version=2 above a specific block height
188 2014-10-30 03:26:27 <phantomcircuit> unless we're thinking there is going to be a reorg all the way back to version=1
189 2014-10-30 03:26:46 <Luke-Jr> perhaps, but unrelated to this PR
190 2014-10-30 03:26:51 <Luke-Jr> that code is merely moved
191 2014-10-30 03:27:08 <phantomcircuit> agreed
192 2014-10-30 03:27:15 <phantomcircuit> it just reminded me
193 2014-10-30 03:27:29 <phantomcircuit> if you compile with -O0 that block of code is like 25% of verification time btw
194 2014-10-30 03:27:35 <phantomcircuit> at -O2 it's <0.1%
195 2014-10-30 03:28:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i was thinking earlier that all logic in AcceptBlockHeader can safely go into CheckBlockHeader now, requiring you know the previous block headers already
196 2014-10-30 03:28:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: as that's always the case now
197 2014-10-30 03:29:06 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it could easily be optimized further; keep window-sums-per-version around, and update them in connecttip/disconnecttip
198 2014-10-30 03:29:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do I need to combine them as part of this PR?
199 2014-10-30 03:29:25 <sipa> just thought it may simplify things for you
200 2014-10-30 03:29:37 <phantomcircuit> sipa, as it stands it's only an issue if you're debugging at -O0 or -O1
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202 2014-10-30 03:29:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: for block v3 it will be doubled, though
203 2014-10-30 03:30:05 <phantomcircuit> true
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205 2014-10-30 03:30:25 <phantomcircuit> anyways the important realization is that once the condition triggers it's effectively impossible to go back
206 2014-10-30 03:30:53 <phantomcircuit> so no need to be checking it
207 2014-10-30 03:31:16 <sipa> after the 95% point, yes
208 2014-10-30 03:31:21 <phantomcircuit> iirc i rewrote that at somepoint with a static int minimum_version
209 2014-10-30 03:31:30 <sipa> but after 75% it is still possible
210 2014-10-30 03:31:45 <phantomcircuit> which only worked if everything ran in order
211 2014-10-30 03:32:22 <Luke-Jr> if (version < height / 204303)
212 2014-10-30 03:32:23 <Luke-Jr> :P
213 2014-10-30 03:32:33 <phantomcircuit> ...
214 2014-10-30 03:32:36 <phantomcircuit> >.>
215 2014-10-30 03:32:54 <phantomcircuit> it could easily be part of the checkpoints
216 2014-10-30 03:32:59 <Luke-Jr> (disclaimer: i didn't bother to find the exact block height applicable)
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218 2014-10-30 03:33:47 <sipa> now someone goes on to write a BIP based on this
219 2014-10-30 03:33:54 <sipa> attaches this piece of irc log as reference
220 2014-10-30 03:33:58 <sipa> and woops -> fork
221 2014-10-30 03:34:25 <phantomcircuit> ha
222 2014-10-30 03:34:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: at this point, the bottleneck IMO is review, and "simplifying things" in that way (combining funcs) increases time to review, so I'll just leave it for now unless there's a reason to change it
223 2014-10-30 03:34:53 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, can you change the function names from Ctx to Contextual
224 2014-10-30 03:35:01 <phantomcircuit> it's not like the extra few bytes matter
225 2014-10-30 03:35:16 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: Ctx is a pretty common abbreviation, though.. sipa: thoughts? :P
226 2014-10-30 03:35:18 <sipa> fair enough; i'll have a look at your patch and see whether it would actually result in a simpler change
227 2014-10-30 03:35:25 * sipa needs sleep first, though
228 2014-10-30 03:35:39 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i know but just... why?
229 2014-10-30 03:35:55 <phantomcircuit> it's not like typing Contextual is the bottleneck on any development
230 2014-10-30 03:35:56 <phantomcircuit> :P
231 2014-10-30 03:36:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: effort to rebase the 3 PRs built on top it? <.<
232 2014-10-30 03:36:14 <phantomcircuit> sigh
233 2014-10-30 03:36:20 <phantomcircuit> why u acronym in the first place
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235 2014-10-30 03:37:05 <Luke-Jr> habit
236 2014-10-30 03:37:15 <sipa> Ctx is not an acronym
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238 2014-10-30 03:37:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, words
239 2014-10-30 03:38:06 <sipa> no, it's not a word either :p
240 2014-10-30 03:38:07 <phantomcircuit> abbreviation
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242 2014-10-30 03:38:58 <petahash> after reading the whitepaper
243 2014-10-30 03:39:15 <Luke-Jr> time to argue > time to change
244 2014-10-30 03:39:22 <petahash> I am describing the blockchain to someone as an open ledger system and encrypted key exchange
245 2014-10-30 03:39:24 <Luke-Jr> renaming
246 2014-10-30 03:39:37 <Luke-Jr> done
247 2014-10-30 03:39:41 <cfields> anyone happen to know if there have been any issues reported wrt alertnotify on windows?
248 2014-10-30 03:39:45 <petahash> would this be accurate?
249 2014-10-30 03:39:46 <sipa> petahash: there is no encryption
250 2014-10-30 03:40:03 <cfields> if wine can be trusted, it appears to be busted there
251 2014-10-30 03:40:06 <petahash> hm.
252 2014-10-30 03:40:09 <sipa> and certainly the blockchain does not exchange keys
253 2014-10-30 03:40:19 <sipa> you do that beforehand (by sending someone an address)
254 2014-10-30 03:40:36 <sipa> it's just a ledger with authenticated transactions
255 2014-10-30 03:41:44 <petahash> I came from using pgp messaging before getting into Bitcoin, forgive me if I think of encryption keys and its exchange as a type of transaction
256 2014-10-30 03:42:10 <sipa> there are no encryption keys as there is no encryption :)
257 2014-10-30 03:42:12 <petahash> so open ledger system
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259 2014-10-30 03:42:40 <petahash> there is encryption
260 2014-10-30 03:42:45 <sipa> no...
261 2014-10-30 03:42:56 <sipa> except locally in the wallet if you set a passphrase
262 2014-10-30 03:43:29 <sipa> but the protocol or the blockchain do not employ encryption anywhere
263 2014-10-30 03:44:05 <petahash> bitcoin is based on encryption
264 2014-10-30 03:44:13 <sipa> no
265 2014-10-30 03:44:16 <sipa> sorry
266 2014-10-30 03:44:36 <joeykrug> based on cryptography != based on encryption
267 2014-10-30 03:44:47 <sipa> #bitcoin please - this channel is about development
268 2014-10-30 03:44:49 <gmaxwell> #bitcoin for the bitcoin 101 please.
269 2014-10-30 03:44:53 <petahash> yea
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292 2014-10-30 04:36:30 <Luke-Jr> weird, checkpoints are randomly enabled for tests? :/
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301 2014-10-30 05:12:33 <sipa> ?
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312 2014-10-30 05:21:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the miner_tests fixes were failing due to checkpoints, but Travis missed it at least once
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365 2014-10-30 06:47:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: before I go email github complaining that the emails are truncating the git hashes...you did post the ack on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5167 with the ``` first, and didnt just edit the post to add those?
366 2014-10-30 06:47:58 <BlueMatt> or wumpus?
367 2014-10-30 06:48:54 <sipa> i've before put a _ in front of commit hashes to prevent them from disappearing
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369 2014-10-30 06:49:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I edited it to add the quotes, did it mangle it first? darn
370 2014-10-30 06:50:00 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: git mangles it to shorhashes without the quotes
371 2014-10-30 06:50:16 <gmaxwell> sorry, was cargo culting and didn't realize I needed the quotes until I saw the font difference.. /me fixes
372 2014-10-30 06:50:44 <BlueMatt> no big deal, I just wanted to check before I went off and emailed github complainging that my notfication emails have invalid pgp signatures
373 2014-10-30 06:52:39 <gmaxwell> oh interesting it shows fine on the site now. Guess it only shortened in the email
374 2014-10-30 06:53:23 <BlueMatt> well if you missed the code tagging then it shortens
375 2014-10-30 06:53:42 <BlueMatt> I just wanted to see if it was an edit, as if it was, it would have emailed the old version
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393 2014-10-30 07:47:46 <wumpus> BlueMatt: yes, I added them later when I noticed that the hash was truncated
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411 2014-10-30 08:10:15 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I wonder if there a way to get shorter signatures in GPG - I like the idea of signing messages on github, but 7 lines of base64 crap for a one-line message is a bit over-the-top
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413 2014-10-30 08:11:13 <gmaxwell> well, could use smaller keys. or the new ecc support in pre-rel GPG.
414 2014-10-30 08:11:15 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yes, I was thinking this
415 2014-10-30 08:11:26 <gmaxwell> or bitcoin signmessages...
416 2014-10-30 08:11:32 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I might email github anyway and just ask them to hide the signature behind a --click to see--
417 2014-10-30 08:11:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ewwww
418 2014-10-30 08:12:08 <gmaxwell> well... I mean... they're small.
419 2014-10-30 08:12:17 <BlueMatt> ewwwwww
420 2014-10-30 08:12:22 <sipa> and they blow people's mind
421 2014-10-30 08:12:29 <BlueMatt> ^ ok, this is true
422 2014-10-30 08:12:36 <sipa> "how the hell can it verify it without me telling it the public key!!!??!"
423 2014-10-30 08:12:59 <wumpus> BlueMatt: hiding it behind a 'click to see' would be another option, but I wouldn'te xpect prompt support from github itself here
424 2014-10-30 08:13:17 <wumpus> well, bitcoin signmessages are short, it's not that a bad idea
425 2014-10-30 08:13:40 <BlueMatt> wumpus: oh? Ive noted support@github being rather quick for simple things
426 2014-10-30 08:13:53 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I do prefer keeping it with the same keys as is used to sign git commits
427 2014-10-30 08:14:18 * BlueMatt -> zzzZZZzzz
428 2014-10-30 08:14:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I kinda don't simply because I'd rather not have commit keys on a web-browsing machine. Seperation of concerns and all that.
429 2014-10-30 08:14:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
430 2014-10-30 08:14:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you ACK commits on a web-browsing machine?
431 2014-10-30 08:14:41 <wumpus> why? you could sign the public key used for message verification with the GPG key to provide a trail
432 2014-10-30 08:14:54 <sipa> so all we need is a mechanism where you add a commit which adds your signmessage key to the git tree (in a commit message for example) :)
433 2014-10-30 08:15:10 <BlueMatt> all we need is a bitcoin-address WoT
434 2014-10-30 08:15:12 <BlueMatt> wait...no
435 2014-10-30 08:15:14 <sipa> NO
436 2014-10-30 08:15:28 * gmaxwell stabs
437 2014-10-30 08:15:32 <wumpus> hah
438 2014-10-30 08:15:46 <wumpus> is there a way to browse github on a non-webbrowsing machine?
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440 2014-10-30 08:15:59 <cfields> git fetch :)
441 2014-10-30 08:16:00 <BlueMatt> wumpus: git fetch, review code, ACK the commithash
442 2014-10-30 08:16:06 <wumpus> ncurses github interface :-)
443 2014-10-30 08:16:11 <gmaxwell> how do you get that ack onto the site?
444 2014-10-30 08:16:11 <BlueMatt> heh
445 2014-10-30 08:16:12 <wumpus> cfields: that doesn't get the comments
446 2014-10-30 08:16:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I have a directory sync'ed between machiens (well, sshfs)
447 2014-10-30 08:16:33 <wumpus> obviously I know how to access *git* without a webbrowser...
448 2014-10-30 08:16:37 <cfields> aren't comments in refs/notes/ or so ?
449 2014-10-30 08:16:40 <BlueMatt> where ssh is ssh-ftp-only and chroot'd
450 2014-10-30 08:16:52 <BlueMatt> wumpus: Ive been doing all my review on a non-web-browsing machine
451 2014-10-30 08:16:57 <sipa> 'comments' ?
452 2014-10-30 08:17:02 <sipa> ah, github comments
453 2014-10-30 08:17:03 <BlueMatt> cfields: does anyone use those (github?)
454 2014-10-30 08:17:05 <sipa> there's an api
455 2014-10-30 08:17:26 <gmaxwell> hm. we should be using it to mirror things in any case.
456 2014-10-30 08:17:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes
457 2014-10-30 08:17:42 <sipa> yes
458 2014-10-30 08:17:43 <cfields> BlueMatt: pretty sure they're setup as a remote refspec so you can fetch 'em
459 2014-10-30 08:17:43 <gmaxwell> the fact that comments can be edited with no apparent history is sometimes annoying.
460 2014-10-30 08:17:58 <sipa> cfields: really?
461 2014-10-30 08:18:01 <wumpus> the github comments can be downloaded through a REST API, but not through git
462 2014-10-30 08:18:05 <gmaxwell> (there are some cases of sipa and I continually editing our responses in response to each other...)
463 2014-10-30 08:18:33 <BlueMatt> we all need to take a month off of development and build a distributed github linus-style
464 2014-10-30 08:18:55 <cfields> sipa: i swear i saw they were doing that at one point. googling.
465 2014-10-30 08:18:56 * BlueMatt -> actually zzZZZzz
466 2014-10-30 08:19:03 <wumpus> let's not take this over the top
467 2014-10-30 08:19:17 <BlueMatt> wumpus: awwwww, buzzkill
468 2014-10-30 08:19:17 <sipa> clearly we need a blockchain with all commits in it
469 2014-10-30 08:19:21 <sipa> ... wait, that's git
470 2014-10-30 08:19:28 <wumpus> lol sipa
471 2014-10-30 08:19:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: noooo, we MUST ADD PROOF OF WORK
472 2014-10-30 08:19:56 <wumpus> proof of coding work?
473 2014-10-30 08:19:58 <sipa> showing that the unit tests passed is enough work
474 2014-10-30 08:20:06 <sipa> now all we need is a SNARK for that...
475 2014-10-30 08:20:07 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
476 2014-10-30 08:20:10 <cfields> https://github.com/blog/707-git-notes-display
477 2014-10-30 08:20:15 <cfields> looks like that's what i was thinking of
478 2014-10-30 08:20:42 <wumpus> cfields: ah yes, that's yet another kind of notes which *are* embedded in the repo
479 2014-10-30 08:21:11 <cfields> wumpus: yes. i thought that github's comments were implemented as notes, or could be
480 2014-10-30 08:21:28 <wumpus> cfields: indeed, they could be
481 2014-10-30 08:21:39 <cfields> looks like i was mistaken though :(
482 2014-10-30 08:23:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's quite easy to download all comments from github, where I was stuck is how to do it incremementally, so that we don't have to download the entire database every day (or whatever the mirroring time)
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485 2014-10-30 08:24:10 <wumpus> but there's no notification for changed comments and such
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493 2014-10-30 08:31:41 <wumpus> " Only issues updated at or after this time are returned. This is a timestamp in ISO 8601 format: YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SSZ." interesting - I wonder if this includes edited comments
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497 2014-10-30 08:35:26 <CodeShark> has anyone compiled any sort of usage statistics on the different JSON-RPC commands?
498 2014-10-30 08:35:43 <CodeShark> i.e. how much they are used in third-party projects
499 2014-10-30 08:36:52 <CodeShark> I'd guess probably not - but I thought I'd ask anyhow :)
500 2014-10-30 08:37:59 <wumpus> how could you do that? I can imagine adding profile counters for every call, but a phone-home to report statistics wouldn't be acceptable
501 2014-10-30 08:38:48 <CodeShark> actually, I was more looking at just parsing through open source projects and seeing which projects use what commands
502 2014-10-30 08:39:10 <CodeShark> I don't really care about each invocation - I just care about whether or not a project uses the command
503 2014-10-30 08:39:55 derbumi_ has quit (Quit: derbumi_)
504 2014-10-30 08:40:36 <CodeShark> I'm trying to work on some compatibility issues
505 2014-10-30 08:41:06 jMyles has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
506 2014-10-30 08:41:15 <CodeShark> I'm also curious as to the error handling
507 2014-10-30 08:41:39 <CodeShark> i.e. how seriously would it break projects if, i.e., the error codes were different
508 2014-10-30 08:42:55 <wumpus> the way to go about that would be to introduce a completely new API version, it'd allow cleaning up some deprecated functionality as well
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510 2014-10-30 08:43:32 <wumpus> there's a github issue about that somewhere...
511 2014-10-30 08:43:50 <CodeShark> I'm working on an interface for a set of tools with the goal of making them as much a drop-in replacement for bitcoind in existing projects as possible
512 2014-10-30 08:44:26 <CodeShark> so a new API version wouldn't really help here - although I would definitely like to coordinate on API extensions
513 2014-10-30 08:45:05 <wumpus> ok, well, if that is the goal the obvious route would be to emulate bitcoind output as well as possible, at least not make any changes on purpose
514 2014-10-30 08:45:57 <CodeShark> besides strict formatting issues, there are also a few issues with the use model that are a bit of a challenge
515 2014-10-30 08:45:58 <wumpus> why would a drop-in replacement change error codes?
516 2014-10-30 08:46:25 <CodeShark> because these tools can sometimes give better error information - more granular error reporting
517 2014-10-30 08:46:57 <wumpus> but then it's no longer a drop-in replacement, that's already a step ahead of that, so provide a 'compatibility' layer as well as an improved API for example
518 2014-10-30 08:47:14 <CodeShark> right - I could suppress granular errors
519 2014-10-30 08:47:35 <CodeShark> I'm more concerned about the use model - in particular, the use of accounts poses some challenges
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521 2014-10-30 08:48:05 <CodeShark> my tools also have a concept of "accounts" but it's completely different. what bitcoind calls an "account" my tools would call a "script label"
522 2014-10-30 08:48:08 <wumpus> we noticed that:p https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3816
523 2014-10-30 08:48:51 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i would like to just remove the accounts stuff
524 2014-10-30 08:48:54 <wumpus> for accounts I indeed doubt that's what you want to emulate exactly
525 2014-10-30 08:49:00 <phantomcircuit> so much potential for brokenness
526 2014-10-30 08:49:29 <CodeShark> yeah - it's good to be able to label addressesâ¦but the account system is something I've always avoided
527 2014-10-30 08:49:41 <wumpus> that's exactly what is proposed in the issue
528 2014-10-30 08:49:52 <wumpus> replace the account system with a pure system of labeling addresses
529 2014-10-30 08:50:21 <wumpus> so no more account *balances*, no more sending *from* an account
530 2014-10-30 08:50:39 <wumpus> labels only receive
531 2014-10-30 08:50:48 <CodeShark> right
532 2014-10-30 08:51:01 <CodeShark> then getnewaddress could take a label parameter, i.e.
533 2014-10-30 08:52:17 <CodeShark> I've been considering associating several fields with receiving addresses - sender id, description, time issued, etc...
534 2014-10-30 08:52:25 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, dont do that
535 2014-10-30 08:52:47 <phantomcircuit> you cant do incremental backups of the wallet reasonably
536 2014-10-30 08:52:59 <CodeShark> ?
537 2014-10-30 08:53:03 <phantomcircuit> so everytime you changes the associations you would need a new complete backup
538 2014-10-30 08:53:11 <wumpus> something could be said about associating data to labels belonging in the merchant system
539 2014-10-30 08:53:11 <CodeShark> I have a synchronization protocol
540 2014-10-30 08:53:20 <wumpus> not in the wallet
541 2014-10-30 08:53:45 <CodeShark> you can import labels into another instance of the same "wallet" - and have the option of keeping the labels you already had or replacing them when there's a conflict
542 2014-10-30 08:54:25 <wumpus> if we were to redesign it would be really minimal, provide identifiers so users can associate data with it on their side, but don't encourage storing data in the wallet
543 2014-10-30 08:55:12 <CodeShark> right - I suppose you could do the associations at another levelâ¦but I really want to be able to show the user detailed history without requiring them to write an entirely new app
544 2014-10-30 08:55:55 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, the address is already a unique identifier
545 2014-10-30 08:55:57 <CodeShark> I guess the associations could be stored in a separate db which can be synched independently from the core wallet stuff
546 2014-10-30 08:56:33 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: right
547 2014-10-30 08:56:42 <CodeShark> the only associations intrinsic to the wallet are things like BIP32 derivation path
548 2014-10-30 08:57:33 <wumpus> yes, those are essential
549 2014-10-30 08:57:41 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, put the metadata in the system with the invoice information
550 2014-10-30 08:58:08 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the tree part of HD wallets might be an issue there actually
551 2014-10-30 08:58:15 <phantomcircuit> exponential possible paths
552 2014-10-30 08:58:40 <phantomcircuit> nasty if you're generating lots of addresses at weird indexes without many actualy transactions
553 2014-10-30 08:59:22 <CodeShark> right - you'd want to have small gaps if you want to be able to do scans
554 2014-10-30 09:00:01 <phantomcircuit> or you do it as a chain and not a tree
555 2014-10-30 09:00:22 <wumpus> gmaxwell,jgarzik,gavinandresen,sipa: I'm thinking of bumping autoprune to 0.11 instead of 0.10; it looks like we still have enough wrinkles to work out in headers-first, pulling in another major change in block handling seems risky
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559 2014-10-30 09:01:52 <CodeShark> the use model I'm considering is one where multiple instances of the same wallet are essentially mirrored - initially, it could be accomplished via a central serverâ¦and then perhaps the protocol can evolve to be more decentralized
560 2014-10-30 09:02:17 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, why
561 2014-10-30 09:02:22 <CodeShark> perhaps something along the lines of git
562 2014-10-30 09:02:48 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: because in enterprise usage you want to have redundancy and the ability to monitor accounts from multiple devices
563 2014-10-30 09:03:13 <wumpus> if we still want it for 0.10, it must be one of the next things merged; are we confident enough about the code changes for that?
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565 2014-10-30 09:04:05 <wumpus> anyhow: call for testing/review on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4701
566 2014-10-30 09:04:15 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: and even for personal use, you want to make backups and have the backup process as automated as possible
567 2014-10-30 09:04:34 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, uh dont do live data replication as backup
568 2014-10-30 09:04:39 <phantomcircuit> pre generate like
569 2014-10-30 09:04:42 <phantomcircuit> a few million keys
570 2014-10-30 09:04:49 <CodeShark> I'm using BIP32 for everything
571 2014-10-30 09:04:49 <wumpus> he uses deterministic key generation
572 2014-10-30 09:05:10 <phantomcircuit> then you're just coordinating what the addresses are for
573 2014-10-30 09:05:20 <phantomcircuit> which is a ... what problem? :P
574 2014-10-30 09:05:27 <CodeShark> right - only the metadata synchronization is what's at issue here
575 2014-10-30 09:06:12 <CodeShark> the mirroring doesn't have to be done as live data replication, in any case
576 2014-10-30 09:06:21 <CodeShark> you could do daily pushes of the metadata
577 2014-10-30 09:06:30 <CodeShark> or whatever schedule you want
578 2014-10-30 09:06:41 <phantomcircuit> er can you?
579 2014-10-30 09:06:50 <phantomcircuit> lets say you're assigning addresses to invoices
580 2014-10-30 09:06:59 <phantomcircuit> how would you do that without a consensus protocol
581 2014-10-30 09:07:49 <CodeShark> you'd have to avoid using the same HD root from two different devices simultaneously
582 2014-10-30 09:08:02 <CodeShark> each device could be assigned its own HD root, i.e.
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585 2014-10-30 09:10:09 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, sure, but then why do they need a shared root at all? i guess that's simpler
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588 2014-10-30 09:11:09 <CodeShark> a shared root makes it easier to ensure you don't lose your keys
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590 2014-10-30 09:11:52 <CodeShark> and it means you can deploy the account to multiple devices without requiring additional entropy for each device
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592 2014-10-30 09:12:32 <phantomcircuit> yeah then i guess this gets you both things you wanted
593 2014-10-30 09:12:46 <phantomcircuit> redundancy for address assignment and for monitoring
594 2014-10-30 09:13:16 <phantomcircuit> though i remember there being some weirdness about public derivation and private and not mixing the two or something
595 2014-10-30 09:13:23 <CodeShark> yes, indeed
596 2014-10-30 09:13:37 <CodeShark> in this use model the master private keys are only held at the very top
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598 2014-10-30 09:14:22 <CodeShark> in other words, all signing devices need to trust all other signing devices
599 2014-10-30 09:14:24 <phantomcircuit> personally i think pre generating millions upon millions of keys sounds less risky
600 2014-10-30 09:14:32 <phantomcircuit> but there are certainly tradeoffs
601 2014-10-30 09:15:11 <phantomcircuit> and i will readily admit to not having a good understanding of the maths
602 2014-10-30 09:15:24 <CodeShark> if you want to delegate signing authority hierarchically, this approach we're discussing won't work
603 2014-10-30 09:15:46 <CodeShark> you can only delegate monitoring authorityâ¦and signing devices must be trusted
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606 2014-10-30 09:17:15 <CodeShark> or rather, signing devices at best can be peers
607 2014-10-30 09:17:20 <CodeShark> no hierarchy
608 2014-10-30 09:17:35 <CodeShark> with multisig you don't need to have complete trust in any single signing device
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610 2014-10-30 09:17:54 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, eh
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612 2014-10-30 09:18:32 <CodeShark> I'm using BIP32 parallel trees to generate multisig addresses
613 2014-10-30 09:18:34 <phantomcircuit> just seems like pre generating lots of private key/address pairs is going to be safer, then modify bitcoin such that it wont expand the keypool unless the rpc call is made
614 2014-10-30 09:19:23 <CodeShark> pregenerating lots of keys means having to transmit a crapton of data to deploy accountsâ¦and such an approach is highly intolerant of even the smallest discrepancies
615 2014-10-30 09:19:32 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
616 2014-10-30 09:19:39 derbumi_ has joined
617 2014-10-30 09:19:54 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, maybe for sidechains it doesn't matter
618 2014-10-30 09:19:57 <phantomcircuit> er
619 2014-10-30 09:19:58 <phantomcircuit> does
620 2014-10-30 09:20:17 <phantomcircuit> transaction volume on bitcoin is low enough that even a ridiculous number of addresses could be small
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623 2014-10-30 09:22:08 <CodeShark> BIP32 is capped at a little over 2 billion children per node
624 2014-10-30 09:22:29 <CodeShark> in practice you could probably safely go down a few orders of magnitude
625 2014-10-30 09:22:33 <phantomcircuit> even if you filled each block and you were every single transaction in the chain
626 2014-10-30 09:22:41 <phantomcircuit> that would only be like 225m transactions
627 2014-10-30 09:22:48 <phantomcircuit> so lets say 500m addresses
628 2014-10-30 09:22:48 ThomasV has joined
629 2014-10-30 09:23:02 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, it's just not that much
630 2014-10-30 09:23:08 <CodeShark> and if you ran out of addresses, you could always deploy a new account and transfer everything over
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632 2014-10-30 09:23:55 <phantomcircuit> eh
633 2014-10-30 09:24:17 <phantomcircuit> i see the appeal of an hd wallet scheme
634 2014-10-30 09:24:27 <phantomcircuit> but it feels more dangerous
635 2014-10-30 09:24:41 akstunt600 has joined
636 2014-10-30 09:24:54 JackH has joined
637 2014-10-30 09:25:00 <CodeShark> in principle it could be done with pregenerated keys - we could devise a hierarchical account scheme using pregenerated keys and a hash to identify the account uniquely - but this doesn't ensure that different accounts don't share addresses
638 2014-10-30 09:25:52 <CodeShark> I guess that's not 100% ensured by an HD scheme eitherâ¦but the probability of collision is astronomically tiny :)
639 2014-10-30 09:28:31 rubensayshi has joined
640 2014-10-30 09:30:47 <CodeShark> the two main dangers in HD wallet schemes are that you cannot delegate signing control over subtrees while also providing watching control over the entire treeâ¦and if the chain code gets leaked it compromises privacy
641 2014-10-30 09:31:33 <CodeShark> the first issue can be tackled to an extent for certain use cases - i.e. audits
642 2014-10-30 09:32:01 <CodeShark> by using a "dummy" pubkey in multisig addresses
643 2014-10-30 09:32:16 <CodeShark> but not for decentralized address generation
644 2014-10-30 09:33:44 <CodeShark> and the second issue is probably more of a feature than an issueâ¦you want it to be easy to deploy the tree. and even if you use pregenerated keys, if someone gains access to your data it compromises your privacy. the only difference is they need to copy more data
645 2014-10-30 09:34:31 timothy has joined
646 2014-10-30 09:34:48 NewLiberty has joined
647 2014-10-30 09:35:02 <CodeShark> aside from that, barring a quantum computer I don't think there are any known attacks
648 2014-10-30 09:35:51 <CodeShark> you still have at least 128 bits of entropy
649 2014-10-30 09:37:35 <CodeShark> anyhow, back to the account thing with the bitcoind wallet - it's annoyingâ¦hard to find a way to be totally compatible with the existing API using my use model
650 2014-10-30 09:38:41 <CodeShark> I have at least two intrinsic attributes for each address and at least one metaattribute
651 2014-10-30 09:38:59 <CodeShark> the two intrinsic attributes are the root of the tree and the derivation path
652 2014-10-30 09:39:11 <CodeShark> and the metaattribute is the descriptive label
653 2014-10-30 09:40:50 <CodeShark> getbalance for a particular subtree completely sensible - but not really for the label
654 2014-10-30 09:40:58 <CodeShark> *is completely sensible
655 2014-10-30 09:41:45 <CodeShark> and you wouldn't want to do a getaddresseswithlabel (usually)
656 2014-10-30 09:41:56 <CodeShark> you'd usually want to do a getaddressesinsubtree
657 2014-10-30 09:43:01 <CodeShark> and for getnewaddress, you want to be able to select the parent node AND give the newly generated address a label in a single call
658 2014-10-30 09:48:32 AaronvanW has joined
659 2014-10-30 09:51:32 <CodeShark> one of the reasons I wanted some statistics on usage is because if the account feature isn't being used too much it would probably be ok to just not support it at all
660 2014-10-30 09:52:22 <CodeShark> we can develop a new API version which distinguishes between labels and accounts
661 2014-10-30 09:54:18 <iwilcox> I'd expect a number of folks have built code around accounts that isn't open for security reasons.
662 2014-10-30 09:57:50 one0one has quit ()
663 2014-10-30 10:00:37 <CodeShark> yeah - probably not worth supporting at all
664 2014-10-30 10:01:19 kromtar has joined
665 2014-10-30 10:05:09 mkarrer has joined
666 2014-10-30 10:06:31 <CodeShark> I've always maintained that the "account" feature in the bitcoind wallet was a bad idea to begin with
667 2014-10-30 10:08:06 <CodeShark> heck - integrating a wallet into the consensus engine was a bad idea to begin with :p
668 2014-10-30 10:08:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: accounts are pretty handy, but not as implemented :p
669 2014-10-30 10:08:39 <Luke-Jr> needs automatic replication/backup..
670 2014-10-30 10:08:44 <Luke-Jr> and not part of the consensus engine
671 2014-10-30 10:09:03 vmatekole has joined
672 2014-10-30 10:09:14 <CodeShark> even running the wallet as part of the same process is a bad idea :p
673 2014-10-30 10:09:14 johnsoft has quit (Read error: No route to host)
674 2014-10-30 10:09:36 <CodeShark> the consensus engine is a runtime service - the wallet is a user-facing app
675 2014-10-30 10:09:49 johnsoft has joined
676 2014-10-30 10:09:53 <Luke-Jr> right
677 2014-10-30 10:10:08 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: consider how far we've come from a Windows-only GUI-only all-in-one ;D
678 2014-10-30 10:10:13 derbumi_ has quit (Quit: derbumi_)
679 2014-10-30 10:10:13 <CodeShark> heh
680 2014-10-30 10:10:13 <sipa> CodeShark: you're preaching to the choir :)
681 2014-10-30 10:12:06 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes, we're kind of aware of that already... :)
682 2014-10-30 10:12:09 <CodeShark> heh
683 2014-10-30 10:13:05 <wumpus> we're aware it shouldn't be like this, it's more of a matter of 'how do we get there from here', we can't just drop accounts, or the wallet for that matter, from one release to the next
684 2014-10-30 10:13:09 BananaLotus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
685 2014-10-30 10:13:24 tjopper has joined
686 2014-10-30 10:13:34 BananaLotus has joined
687 2014-10-30 10:13:42 <CodeShark> yes, I know we're all on the same page here
688 2014-10-30 10:15:12 <CodeShark> on a completely separate API issue, are there any proposals to add decimal types to JSON? :)
689 2014-10-30 10:15:22 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: no need?
690 2014-10-30 10:15:36 <Luke-Jr> JSON's Number covers pretty much all possible use cases :P
691 2014-10-30 10:16:16 <Luke-Jr> ..what do you mean your JSON parser explodes on 2e65536?
692 2014-10-30 10:16:22 <CodeShark> there is a very strong need in the case of financial software - the distinction between internal representation as a base2 exponent vs a base10 exponent is significant
693 2014-10-30 10:16:27 <wumpus> well I has a pull open for a while that replaced the monetary amounts with strings or whole number satoshis, but no one really cared about it and I didn't feel like maintaining it anymore
694 2014-10-30 10:16:36 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: Number has no internal representation
695 2014-10-30 10:16:49 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
696 2014-10-30 10:16:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I think I had the same a year or two prior to yours :P
697 2014-10-30 10:17:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: genjix as well
698 2014-10-30 10:17:11 weilu has joined
699 2014-10-30 10:17:12 <Luke-Jr> we even had Spesmilo use it IIRC
700 2014-10-30 10:17:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so, while it's certainly an issue, it's not one that bothers people very strongly
701 2014-10-30 10:17:32 FreeSome has joined
702 2014-10-30 10:17:38 <Luke-Jr> it's an issue with JSON implementations, not JSON
703 2014-10-30 10:17:41 akstunt600 has joined
704 2014-10-30 10:17:55 <wumpus> there are known cases of people using floating point for monetary amounts and messing up very badly... but it's not really bitcoin core's fault how people interpret the JSON
705 2014-10-30 10:17:56 <wumpus> right
706 2014-10-30 10:18:01 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: the problem is that most architectures and environments use base2 floating points by default
707 2014-10-30 10:18:27 <CodeShark> doesn't matter how much precision you have - you cannot represent 1/5 exactly as a base2 floating point
708 2014-10-30 10:18:33 <CodeShark> whereas in decimal it's 0.2
709 2014-10-30 10:18:34 <wumpus> in Python it's quite easy to use Decimals instead, but not all JSON parsers allow such configuratbility
710 2014-10-30 10:18:41 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: that's an implementation matter
711 2014-10-30 10:18:57 derbumi_ has joined
712 2014-10-30 10:19:11 <Luke-Jr> using satoshis everywhere is more sane anyway
713 2014-10-30 10:19:23 okae has joined
714 2014-10-30 10:19:25 <CodeShark> using satoshis everywhere is certainly more sane when dealing specifically with bitcoin
715 2014-10-30 10:19:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: watch for overflows though in languages without arbitrary-sized integers
716 2014-10-30 10:20:36 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, GBT forced BFGMiner users to upgrade libjansson :P
717 2014-10-30 10:20:44 <wumpus> a decimal type can be safer in that case, as it was generally designed for usage with monetary amounts
718 2014-10-30 10:20:48 <Luke-Jr> (to a version like 10 years old)
719 2014-10-30 10:21:06 <wumpus> (and accountants really hate number overflows :P)
720 2014-10-30 10:21:47 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
721 2014-10-30 10:22:39 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
722 2014-10-30 10:23:29 <wumpus> anyhow, it's indeed an implementation issue, not so much an API issue; although numbers *looking like* floating point can be considered a trap for hapless developers
723 2014-10-30 10:24:33 vmatekole has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
724 2014-10-30 10:24:46 <CodeShark> the most sane and least dangerous approaches are to either always use satoshisâ¦or to use a separate mantissa and base10 exponent
725 2014-10-30 10:25:02 <Luke-Jr> it's not sane to use decimal at all for bitcoin *shrug*
726 2014-10-30 10:25:09 <Luke-Jr> even if it worked perfectly
727 2014-10-30 10:25:41 <CodeShark> for bitcoin, always using satoshis is fine - problem is that other currencies might use different units
728 2014-10-30 10:26:08 <wumpus> you'd have to specify the unit per currency
729 2014-10-30 10:26:09 <Luke-Jr> sure, but I only worry about bitcoin for JSON :P
730 2014-10-30 10:26:36 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: and what about inherently imprecise currenciesâ :p
731 2014-10-30 10:26:44 <Luke-Jr> *cough* Freicoin *cough*
732 2014-10-30 10:26:46 <CodeShark> lol
733 2014-10-30 10:27:06 <wumpus> hehe
734 2014-10-30 10:27:37 <sipa> freicoin is perfectly precise
735 2014-10-30 10:27:43 <sipa> just time-dependent :)
736 2014-10-30 10:28:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's precise if you round it :p
737 2014-10-30 10:28:37 <CodeShark> uncertainty principle? (delta-E) (delta-t) >= h-bar/2 ?
738 2014-10-30 10:28:41 derbumi_ has quit (Quit: derbumi_)
739 2014-10-30 10:29:28 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: there's a % fee levied against UTXOs every block
740 2014-10-30 10:29:36 <justanotheruser> Freicoins demmurage is block based, not real time based right?
741 2014-10-30 10:29:43 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure
742 2014-10-30 10:29:57 <Luke-Jr> but blocks are the new unit of time ;)
743 2014-10-30 10:30:10 <justanotheruser> clocks, the next blockchain app!
744 2014-10-30 10:31:10 <CodeShark> at the macro level, the block count is a fairly good clock :)
745 2014-10-30 10:31:14 <sipa> does anyone have an idea of the current max speed of generating vanity addresses?
746 2014-10-30 10:31:32 <sipa> (no, i'm not interested in a vanity address, but in hardware EC addition speed)
747 2014-10-30 10:31:40 <CodeShark> sipa: doesn't that lend itself to massive parallization?
748 2014-10-30 10:31:46 <CodeShark> I assume you're talking about a single thread
749 2014-10-30 10:31:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: public, or the secret vanitygen?
750 2014-10-30 10:31:56 <CodeShark> *parallelization
751 2014-10-30 10:32:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the secret edition is faster than GPUs I hear
752 2014-10-30 10:32:14 <Luke-Jr> on CPUs
753 2014-10-30 10:32:18 <sipa> secret edition?
754 2014-10-30 10:32:39 <CodeShark> shhh, don't tell anyone about that
755 2014-10-30 10:33:19 <sipa> haha
756 2014-10-30 10:33:35 <sipa> i'm not interested in a vanity secret no
757 2014-10-30 10:33:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: PM'd
758 2014-10-30 10:33:59 cbeams_ has joined
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767 2014-10-30 10:51:40 <CodeShark> hmmâ¦another option for the label vs. account thing is to use bitcoind "accounts" as labels in my toolsâ¦and to have a global state where you can set the "account" in the sense of my tools for multiple calls
768 2014-10-30 10:52:10 KillYourTV has joined
769 2014-10-30 10:52:17 <wumpus> making the api stateful is kind of ugly
770 2014-10-30 10:52:32 <wumpus> why not make the global account part of the URI, for example?
771 2014-10-30 10:52:48 <CodeShark> would be betterâ¦but it breaks compatibility
772 2014-10-30 10:53:04 <CodeShark> that's how my own APIs work
773 2014-10-30 10:53:06 <wumpus> or even based on the authentication
774 2014-10-30 10:53:17 <wumpus> but stateful is... meh
775 2014-10-30 10:53:55 <CodeShark> yeah, it's not ideal - but otherwise I really can't make a compatible sendtoaddress, i.e.
776 2014-10-30 10:54:16 <Luke-Jr> you can put it in the URI and be compatible..
777 2014-10-30 10:54:20 <wumpus> how would that break compatibility? JSON RPC implementations generally allow specifying the URI
778 2014-10-30 10:55:11 <CodeShark> the call sendtoaddress <address> <amount> is perfectly legit in the JSON-RPC
779 2014-10-30 10:55:40 DanMAbraham has quit (Client Quit)
780 2014-10-30 10:55:49 <CodeShark> the only way to make that work with my tools is to either always use a single accountâ¦or to allow a global account state to be set
781 2014-10-30 10:56:01 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
782 2014-10-30 10:56:49 vmatekole has joined
783 2014-10-30 10:56:57 Lexa has joined
784 2014-10-30 10:57:11 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: or to use the URI, or username, â¦
785 2014-10-30 10:57:12 rothschild1 has joined
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788 2014-10-30 10:57:50 <CodeShark> yes, I suppose you could do thatâ¦but that would require changing the client-side code
789 2014-10-30 10:58:19 <Luke-Jr> certainly the username wouldn't
790 2014-10-30 10:58:39 <CodeShark> hmmm...
791 2014-10-30 10:58:43 <CodeShark> perhaps
792 2014-10-30 10:58:57 rothschild has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
793 2014-10-30 10:59:08 <CodeShark> that's not such a terrible idea
794 2014-10-30 10:59:29 won9 has quit (Quit: won9)
795 2014-10-30 10:59:42 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
796 2014-10-30 11:00:18 johnsoft has joined
797 2014-10-30 11:00:43 <CodeShark> although if the client isn't using accounts to begin with, we could just specify the account name in a config file and use it for all calls
798 2014-10-30 11:00:58 <Luke-Jr> â¦
799 2014-10-30 11:01:07 <Luke-Jr> not like you need the username for something else :P
800 2014-10-30 11:01:45 <CodeShark> well, not sure I like the idea of mixing account selection with authentication mechanisms
801 2014-10-30 11:01:53 <CodeShark> in principle it seems like a bad idea
802 2014-10-30 11:02:09 <Luke-Jr> username is account selection normally
803 2014-10-30 11:02:16 <CodeShark> depends on use model
804 2014-10-30 11:02:27 <CodeShark> the use model I envision is multiple accounts with differing security policies
805 2014-10-30 11:02:33 <CodeShark> but called by the same application
806 2014-10-30 11:02:56 rothschild has joined
807 2014-10-30 11:03:07 nowan has joined
808 2014-10-30 11:03:28 <CodeShark> using the username for the account would work as a temporary hack - but it's certainly not the way to do this going forward
809 2014-10-30 11:03:32 won9 has joined
810 2014-10-30 11:03:39 <CodeShark> it would work for the drop-in replacement idea
811 2014-10-30 11:04:21 <CodeShark> but eventually I intend to have an authentication mechanism that's based on API keys with access controls
812 2014-10-30 11:04:31 <wumpus> I'd personally prefer to have it URI based
813 2014-10-30 11:04:41 <wumpus> it's trivial to change the URI in clients
814 2014-10-30 11:04:47 <CodeShark> yeah, agreed
815 2014-10-30 11:04:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not in bitcoin-cli :p
816 2014-10-30 11:04:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: who cares about bitcoin-cli
817 2014-10-30 11:05:08 <CodeShark> yeah, nobody is going to be using this with bitcoin-cli :p
818 2014-10-30 11:05:23 <wumpus> he could pack his own fancy bitcoin cli tool
819 2014-10-30 11:05:28 <CodeShark> exactly
820 2014-10-30 11:05:39 <CodeShark> or even a simple bash script that makes curl calls :p
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827 2014-10-30 11:12:14 <CodeShark> I don't want to encourage people to specify accounts in the URI, though - I'd much rather provide a new command for anyone who wants to make use of multiple accounts (in the sense of my tools, not the bitcoind wallet sense)
828 2014-10-30 11:12:20 rfreeman_w has joined
829 2014-10-30 11:12:39 <wumpus> well, do that then
830 2014-10-30 11:12:58 <wumpus> arguably if you want to use those you're breaking compatibility already
831 2014-10-30 11:13:05 <CodeShark> right
832 2014-10-30 11:13:22 <CodeShark> compatibility would only cover the case where people are not using accounts in the sense of my tools
833 2014-10-30 11:13:33 <CodeShark> so might as well just specify the account in a config file :)
834 2014-10-30 11:15:15 <CodeShark> defaultaccount=foo
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846 2014-10-30 11:37:26 <dabura667> Is the pruned commit mentioned on Twitter a utxo based pruning, or does it just prune chronologically old blocks regardless of utxos or none?
847 2014-10-30 11:38:28 <paveljanik> Anyone seen a problem with sanity_test_memcpy<1025>()?
848 2014-10-30 11:38:46 <paveljanik> I have an old Mac OS X system where this sometimes fails...
849 2014-10-30 11:38:47 <paveljanik> 8)
850 2014-10-30 11:39:39 <paveljanik> I can reproduce it - when I fprintf something to stderr before this, it is OK. The clean master fails though.
851 2014-10-30 11:41:28 <wumpus> what that test does is: fill an array on the stack with increasing integers, copy it to a new location (also on the stack), then compare
852 2014-10-30 11:41:49 <paveljanik> yup
853 2014-10-30 11:41:50 <wumpus> if that fails either your CPU or memory is pretty much broken
854 2014-10-30 11:41:59 <paveljanik> I'm now investogating the contents of the array...
855 2014-10-30 11:42:02 <wumpus> I wouldn't suggest using it for any cryptocurrency activity
856 2014-10-30 11:42:13 <paveljanik> it could be the compiler...
857 2014-10-30 11:42:15 <wumpus> (that's what the sanity tests are for)
858 2014-10-30 11:42:30 <paveljanik> but yes, the reasoning is good anyway ;-)
859 2014-10-30 11:42:32 <wumpus> yes, but if that is broken, other uses of memcpy could be broken too, that's very dangerous
860 2014-10-30 11:42:59 benrcole has joined
861 2014-10-30 11:43:25 NewLiberty_ has joined
862 2014-10-30 11:43:42 <wumpus> also that it seems to fail *randomly* seems to indicate a hardware not compiler issue
863 2014-10-30 11:45:23 <paveljanik> it is not random...
864 2014-10-30 11:45:29 <paveljanik> it fails consistently
865 2014-10-30 11:45:44 <paveljanik> when I put fprintf(stderr, ...) before the call, it is OK.
866 2014-10-30 11:45:49 <paveljanik> I'll investigate more.
867 2014-10-30 11:45:58 <wumpus> dabura667: it deletes old blocks
868 2014-10-30 11:46:11 <wumpus> dabura667: the utxo set is maintained separately in a database, so is not affected by that
869 2014-10-30 11:46:28 <dabura667> Oic
870 2014-10-30 11:46:45 <dabura667> So all utxo raw transactions are still there
871 2014-10-30 11:46:48 <dabura667> Gotcha
872 2014-10-30 11:47:01 NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
873 2014-10-30 11:47:07 <wumpus> unspent, theoretically spendable outputs are still there in the utxo set
874 2014-10-30 11:47:14 <wumpus> (that's not 'transactions')
875 2014-10-30 11:49:56 <wumpus> looking up the accompanying transaction happens in the block files, which could have been deleted, so that's not possible anymore (neither is -txindex IIRC)
876 2014-10-30 11:50:10 Soligor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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878 2014-10-30 11:52:23 <paveljanik> wumpus: PJ: memcpy_test[00] = 01
879 2014-10-30 11:52:23 <paveljanik> PJ: memcpy_test[01] = 01
880 2014-10-30 11:52:23 <paveljanik> PJ: memcpy_test[02] = 02
881 2014-10-30 11:52:28 <paveljanik> 00 -> 01
882 2014-10-30 11:52:52 <paveljanik> when I fprintf something at the beginning of sanity_test_memcpy(), 00 -> 00
883 2014-10-30 11:52:52 <paveljanik> 8)
884 2014-10-30 11:53:33 <wumpus> interesting, so it misaligns the array
885 2014-10-30 11:53:57 <wumpus> eh, no
886 2014-10-30 11:54:25 <paveljanik> I do not like ++i 8)
887 2014-10-30 11:54:34 <wumpus> ?
888 2014-10-30 11:54:42 gdm85 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
889 2014-10-30 11:55:12 <paveljanik> it always remind me I have to think about its value ;-)
890 2014-10-30 11:55:17 <jgarzik> wumpus, +1 autoprune bump
891 2014-10-30 11:55:37 <wumpus> for (a;b;c) { d } is equivalent to a; while(c); { d; c; } , so using ++i or i++ in c doesn't make a difference for the array
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893 2014-10-30 11:56:05 <wumpus> s/while(c)/while(b)
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896 2014-10-30 11:59:13 <sipa> this is not a programming class
897 2014-10-30 11:59:50 <wumpus> sipa: his compiler could use a programming class though ;)
898 2014-10-30 12:00:35 <paveljanik> it is probably very old gcc
899 2014-10-30 12:00:36 <paveljanik> mmnt
900 2014-10-30 12:00:50 <paveljanik> gcc version 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5666) (dot 3)
901 2014-10-30 12:00:53 <wumpus> well, upgrade it
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903 2014-10-30 12:01:18 <paveljanik> this is not my primary machine and I'm testing git master on various systems...
904 2014-10-30 12:01:28 <paveljanik> I can upgrade or forget about the machine...
905 2014-10-30 12:01:30 <paveljanik> ;-)
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914 2014-10-30 12:04:29 <Luke-Jr> paveljanik: broken compilers are not a concern
915 2014-10-30 12:06:49 <paveljanik> ok, accepted.
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918 2014-10-30 12:07:48 <paveljanik> for the records: the machine is mac os x 10.6.8
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920 2014-10-30 12:10:00 <paveljanik> gcc version above
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922 2014-10-30 12:10:55 <paveljanik> we should probably write it down somewhere for our users
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924 2014-10-30 12:11:37 <paveljanik> the f is called glibc_sanity_test() but it looks like it is gcc_sanity_test in this case ;-)
925 2014-10-30 12:11:57 <Luke-Jr> paveljanik: not even Apple supports OS X 10.6
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927 2014-10-30 12:12:23 <paveljanik> yes
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929 2014-10-30 12:13:48 <paveljanik> ok, I'll skip this and do some further testing, just for the fun
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1083 2014-10-30 14:34:10 <paveljanik> LogPrintf("\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n"); - why only 20? 8)
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1092 2014-10-30 14:41:02 <sipa> paveljanik: not enough?
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1096 2014-10-30 14:41:30 <paveljanik> when watching -printtoconsole -debug, I always call for 1 max ;-)
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1100 2014-10-30 14:47:34 <gdm85> sipa: do you have gpg?
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1102 2014-10-30 14:48:11 <sipa> yes?
1103 2014-10-30 14:48:19 <gdm85> sipa: is it on a public keyserver?
1104 2014-10-30 14:48:37 <wumpus> you could just have queried a public keyserver to find out? :p
1105 2014-10-30 14:48:41 <sipa> yes, and on bitcoin.org/pieterwuille.asc
1106 2014-10-30 14:49:02 <Jouke> wumpus: we are having problems with finding keys on keyservers atm
1107 2014-10-30 14:49:04 <gdm85> for some reason pgp.mit.edu was not returning my key and some of my friends
1108 2014-10-30 14:49:17 <wumpus> Jouke: ok - strange
1109 2014-10-30 14:49:34 <sipa> (and i use it to sign all merges)
1110 2014-10-30 14:50:35 <Naphex> in bitcoin-core is it sufficient to SetAddressBook label back to null to return an address back into the reserve?
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1112 2014-10-30 14:51:20 <wumpus> Naphex: no
1113 2014-10-30 14:51:33 <wumpus> there's no way to return a key to the pool
1114 2014-10-30 14:52:13 <sipa> if you remove the label programmatically, it will be considered a change key
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1116 2014-10-30 14:52:35 <sipa> to put it back into reserve, you have to explicitly add its id back as a pool entry
1117 2014-10-30 14:52:35 <Naphex> how about if i insert it back into setSort?
1118 2014-10-30 14:52:46 <Naphex> i'm trying to code up a wallet function to return an address back to reserve
1119 2014-10-30 14:52:56 <wumpus> indeed, if you manage to completely remove the label (instead of setting it to ''), it will just disappear from view and it will consider it a used change key
1120 2014-10-30 14:53:25 <Naphex> aye, and a change key in the back in the pool set is reserve
1121 2014-10-30 14:53:38 <sipa> indeed
1122 2014-10-30 14:53:49 <Naphex> so if i do a setKeyPool.clear() and reimport it should be enough
1123 2014-10-30 14:54:03 <phantomcircuit> Naphex, ... why?
1124 2014-10-30 14:54:34 <Naphex> phantomcircuit: for the moment i just want to have addresses allocated to accounts temporarily
1125 2014-10-30 14:54:37 <wumpus> clear the keypool?
1126 2014-10-30 14:54:41 <Naphex> and return to keypool after expiration
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1128 2014-10-30 14:55:21 <phantomcircuit> Naphex, ... why?
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1130 2014-10-30 14:55:57 <Naphex> phantomcircuit: cause i want too
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1132 2014-10-30 14:57:17 <phantomcircuit> sounds dangerous
1133 2014-10-30 14:57:22 <wumpus> clearing the key pool will result in a new keypool being generated
1134 2014-10-30 14:57:55 <Naphex> phantomcircuit: why would it, what if you create an account to receive something, and never receive for 4 years
1135 2014-10-30 14:58:10 <wumpus> normally that's only done when encrypting the wallet, or after recovery
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1137 2014-10-30 14:58:13 <phantomcircuit> DO NOT USE THE ACCOUNTS SYSTEM FOR REAL ACCOUNTING
1138 2014-10-30 14:58:14 <iwilcox> gdm85: Were you searching on key ID?
1139 2014-10-30 14:58:37 <Naphex> phantomcircuit: i am not
1140 2014-10-30 14:58:38 <gdm85> iwilcox: yes
1141 2014-10-30 14:58:48 <Naphex> i just want to get a unused address per account
1142 2014-10-30 14:58:55 <Naphex> and if its never used i want to return it back to the reserve
1143 2014-10-30 14:59:00 <Naphex> concious of the risks
1144 2014-10-30 14:59:11 <phantomcircuit> Naphex, it costs close to nothing to keep the address as active instead of in the key pool
1145 2014-10-30 14:59:20 <iwilcox> gdm85: The web interface pgp.mit uses seems to be picky about the 0x, in my experience
1146 2014-10-30 14:59:49 <gdm85> iwilcox: I didn't specify that. mit.edu keyservers are currently troubled, but apparently also some other server
1147 2014-10-30 14:59:49 <Naphex> phantomcircuit: i know but i want to have the ability to return a key back in the pool
1148 2014-10-30 15:00:02 <phantomcircuit> but like.... why
1149 2014-10-30 15:00:35 <wumpus> I guess you could keep your own reserve of addresses, outside of bitcoind, and prefer to deal those out, seems safer than trying to hack the wallet code
1150 2014-10-30 15:01:21 <Naphex> i am working on java code to p2p sync with trusted bitcoin node, index that data and feed it over various interfaces
1151 2014-10-30 15:01:24 <Naphex> but this is for something else
1152 2014-10-30 15:01:43 <Naphex> pretty specific, i checked most other functions including import and dump and it should react fine
1153 2014-10-30 15:01:57 <Naphex> not hacking much in just adding a new rpcwallet function to return the key back to reserve
1154 2014-10-30 15:02:00 <Naphex> and remove its labe
1155 2014-10-30 15:02:01 <Naphex> label
1156 2014-10-30 15:02:03 <phantomcircuit> so far i dont think you've actually articulated a good reason why....
1157 2014-10-30 15:02:04 <Naphex> for extra control
1158 2014-10-30 15:02:22 <phantomcircuit> shrug
1159 2014-10-30 15:02:23 <phantomcircuit> gtg
1160 2014-10-30 15:02:24 <wumpus> (ie, query bitcoind for a new address only if you haven't got anything left in your 'return' pool)
1161 2014-10-30 15:02:47 <wumpus> then again - I agree with phantomcircuit that I wouldn't bother, keys are cheap
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1163 2014-10-30 15:03:08 <iwilcox> gdm85: Well, for future reference (just tested): no 0x means no results.
1164 2014-10-30 15:04:42 <Naphex> i just want to experiment with the wallet code
1165 2014-10-30 15:04:44 <gdm85> iwilcox: true. but I found the status page of keyservers, now it's clear what's going on. </OT>
1166 2014-10-30 15:04:49 <Naphex> and want more control over the labing of addreses over rpc
1167 2014-10-30 15:04:54 <Naphex> so i can test and experiment easier
1168 2014-10-30 15:05:04 <Naphex> its not going to end up production code or anything
1169 2014-10-30 15:05:06 <Naphex> labling*
1170 2014-10-30 15:05:35 <Naphex> i dont want to have another addressbook just to label this, bitcoin-core one should do fine.
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1172 2014-10-30 15:06:45 <Naphex> also setaccount will call a getnewaddress again if you want to relable an address and its just annoying
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1188 2014-10-30 15:32:46 <wumpus> Naphex: did you see CReserveKey::ReturnKey() ? it does exactly what you want (but for a shorter timespan)
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1194 2014-10-30 15:37:52 <Naphex> wumpus: thank you, i will check it out
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1276 2014-10-30 16:37:52 <maaku> is autoprune #4701 really ready for 0.10?
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1282 2014-10-30 16:38:47 <maaku> I thought there ws concern that without pruned nodes storing ranges of historical blocks (and advertising those ranges via version messages, etc.) it'd be too risky to deploy
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1311 2014-10-30 17:11:46 <sipa> maaku: that's not really a concern, as 1) they don't advertize as full nodes 2) without wallet support, those running such a pruned node would be unlikely to be running a node in the first place
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1313 2014-10-30 17:12:32 <maaku> "without wallet support'?
1314 2014-10-30 17:12:48 <sipa> enabling pruning forces -disablewallet
1315 2014-10-30 17:12:59 <sipa> as the interaction between the two has not been tested
1316 2014-10-30 17:13:13 <maaku> people are going to be wondering what the point is then
1317 2014-10-30 17:13:24 <sipa> i'd definitely run a pruned node :)
1318 2014-10-30 17:13:35 <maaku> sure this channel is full of exceptoins
1319 2014-10-30 17:14:05 <sipa> thanks!
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1321 2014-10-30 17:14:30 <maaku> but every person i've interacted with that requested pruning (at conferences, etc.) wanted it so they could use bitcoin-qt as their wallet without gigabytes of ever growing disk usage
1322 2014-10-30 17:15:00 <maaku> forcing -disablewallet is a big surprise
1323 2014-10-30 17:15:22 <sipa> i think the solution for those people is an SPV version of bitcoin-qt
1324 2014-10-30 17:15:25 <gwillen> maaku: well, you don't have to announce it
1325 2014-10-30 17:15:48 <sipa> and wallet support can come later of course, there is no fundamental reason why pruning would require nowallet
1326 2014-10-30 17:15:50 <gwillen> you can put it in to get some people using it in production
1327 2014-10-30 17:16:10 <sipa> but as hardly anyone develops or uses or tests the wallet code in those actively contributing to the project...
1328 2014-10-30 17:16:26 <maaku> gwillen: sure but that doesn't help avoid a pr snafu
1329 2014-10-30 17:17:09 <gwillen> maaku: well, just make sure that anywhere 'pruning' is mentioned (i.e. release notes, usage message, etc.) you make it clear what it isn't
1330 2014-10-30 17:17:31 <rdponticelli> Well, I'm running a wallet on a pruned node, but launching that for productions would require a lot of extra work
1331 2014-10-30 17:17:59 <maaku> running a full node that can't (a) help serve IBD, or (b) provide wallet functionality is a very special use case
1332 2014-10-30 17:18:27 <phantomcircuit> maaku, compact utxo proofs would make that useful :P
1333 2014-10-30 17:18:41 <maaku> true :)
1334 2014-10-30 17:18:42 <phantomcircuit> until then i dont see what the point is except as the trusted node for an spv client
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1336 2014-10-30 17:19:16 <maaku> phantomcircuit: right. which is why I assumed it wouldn't be a release feature until pruned nodes could at least contribute to IBD
1337 2014-10-30 17:19:25 <maaku> which is not that hard a patch to do now that headers first is in
1338 2014-10-30 17:20:11 <sipa> i'm not worried about IBD really
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1346 2014-10-30 17:26:10 <rdponticelli> btw, sipa or wumpus: should I acquire some lock to use the writing methods on CBlockTreeDB?
1347 2014-10-30 17:26:25 <sipa> yes, cs_main
1348 2014-10-30 17:26:42 <rdponticelli> Ok, I thought so
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1351 2014-10-30 17:27:36 <sipa> well, for pblocktree that is
1352 2014-10-30 17:27:48 <sipa> you _could_ create another CBlockTreeDB instance of course :)
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1354 2014-10-30 17:29:34 <rdponticelli> No, I'll keep pblocktree
1355 2014-10-30 17:29:52 <rdponticelli> I've been already testing the locks
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