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  15 2014-10-31 00:17:28 <edlin_> hey i got my first bitcoins today and spent them, thanks a million for the efforts everyone
  16 2014-10-31 00:19:17 <justanotheruser> s/a million/100million
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 135 2014-10-31 03:35:36 <cfields>  /
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 137 2014-10-31 03:35:46 <cfields> was bugging me :)
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 197 2014-10-31 04:42:23 <fanquake> coreyfields are you around?
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 203 2014-10-31 04:48:33 <cfields> yep
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 205 2014-10-31 04:49:03 <cfields> fanquake: what's up?
 206 2014-10-31 04:49:35 <fanquake> Morning
 207 2014-10-31 04:49:58 <cfields> almost zzz time :)
 208 2014-10-31 04:50:35 <fanquake> I’ll make this snappy then ;)
 209 2014-10-31 04:51:00 bliljerk101 has joined
 210 2014-10-31 04:51:05 <fanquake> Was wondering about your depends system. How do you plan to manage package versions within it? Just upgrade to new versions when available? Or are you keepin it inline with gitian?
 211 2014-10-31 04:51:36 <cfields> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4727
 212 2014-10-31 04:51:49 <cfields> the main purpose of it was to replace gitian's scripts
 213 2014-10-31 04:51:56 <cfields> travis just got hooked up faster
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 216 2014-10-31 04:53:29 <fanquake> ah fair enough.
 217 2014-10-31 04:54:13 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 218 2014-10-31 04:54:31 <fanquake> So package versions are just bumped when necessary. Was just wondering because now the openssl versions are different after one was bumped?
 219 2014-10-31 04:54:46 <fanquake> btw re homebrew recipie. completely agree with you there.
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 221 2014-10-31 04:55:09 <cfields> fanquake: that's just because we're about to drop the old gitian scripts in favor of #4727
 222 2014-10-31 04:55:34 <cfields> after that, there will be nothing to keep in sync. a bump in depends will mean that travis tests the bump, and gitian uses it as well
 223 2014-10-31 04:55:50 <fanquake> yep. That’ll be far better.
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 225 2014-10-31 04:56:14 <cfields> some testing would be great ;)
 226 2014-10-31 04:56:41 <fanquake> heh I’m always testing.
 227 2014-10-31 04:56:59 <cfields> gitian builds with that PR, i mean
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 229 2014-10-31 04:57:26 <cfields> though, travis has built/used the depends enough times that i'm pretty confident about them by now
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 231 2014-10-31 04:58:07 <fanquake> dumb question. Are releases going to be built by travis?
 232 2014-10-31 04:58:38 <cfields> no, still gitian
 233 2014-10-31 04:58:55 <Luke-Jr> a better question is "will travis use gitian?" but I think that's no :P
 234 2014-10-31 04:59:03 <cfields> with #4727, travis pretty much does a full gitian build for each PR...
 235 2014-10-31 04:59:14 <cfields> but gitian is still needed for the deterministic bits. mainly the timestamps.
 236 2014-10-31 04:59:20 <Luke-Jr> fanquake: releases are only releases when the binaries are independently built and signed by multiple parties
 237 2014-10-31 04:59:43 <fanquake> Now we just need to be able to grab the binaries of travis and upload them somewhere so people can test easier.
 238 2014-10-31 04:59:44 <cfields> sorry, that first part was probably confusing. with #4727, travis pretty much builds the same way that gitian would for each PR
 239 2014-10-31 04:59:46 <fanquake> *off
 240 2014-10-31 05:00:09 <cfields> fanquake: yea :\. unfortunately we're still waiting for travis to add that feature
 241 2014-10-31 05:00:20 <Luke-Jr> eh, Travis supports that IIRC
 242 2014-10-31 05:00:25 <cfields> well, we could come close
 243 2014-10-31 05:00:25 <fanquake> I thought it did as well
 244 2014-10-31 05:00:33 <Luke-Jr> it has stuff to keep a private SSH key hidden so it can SCP the results
 245 2014-10-31 05:00:37 <cfields> they support hosted binaries for commits, but not for PR's
 246 2014-10-31 05:00:48 <Luke-Jr> cfields: they block scp for PRs? :P
 247 2014-10-31 05:01:06 <cfields> so we can upload binaries after merge, but not before
 248 2014-10-31 05:01:18 <Luke-Jr> oh
 249 2014-10-31 05:01:22 <cfields> Luke-Jr: you can't keep the private keys hidden for PRs.
 250 2014-10-31 05:01:33 <Luke-Jr> right, because otherwise I could PR a script uploading the key to my server.. XD
 251 2014-10-31 05:01:42 <cfields> Luke-Jr: anyone could PR a change that says "cat $priv.file"
 252 2014-10-31 05:01:57 <fanquake> heh
 253 2014-10-31 05:02:19 <cfields> there are ways around it, but they're slightly DOSable. So it depends how bad we want/need it
 254 2014-10-31 05:02:50 <fanquake> I wonder wether nightlies would actually be a good thing? Would it be better to pick times to build new “testing” releases?
 255 2014-10-31 05:02:54 won9 has quit (Quit: won9)
 256 2014-10-31 05:02:56 <cfields> might be a decent idea to host post-merge binaries, though
 257 2014-10-31 05:03:49 <cfields> fanquake: not sure. With the last big project I worked on, releasing nightlies gave a *huge* boost to the number of people testing pre-release code
 258 2014-10-31 05:03:57 <cfields> not sure if that's a good thing for bitcoin, though
 259 2014-10-31 05:05:12 <Luke-Jr> cfields: meh, as long as it's only master and has a nice big warning at the top of the index page..
 260 2014-10-31 05:05:55 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: it could just be made to only connect to the testnet
 261 2014-10-31 05:05:57 <cfields> Luke-Jr: we also turned of nightlies after big nasty merges to lessen the noise after known-problematic changes
 262 2014-10-31 05:05:59 <fanquake> luke Are you still doing those tests builds you used to?
 263 2014-10-31 05:06:02 <cfields> headers-first as a good example
 264 2014-10-31 05:06:09 <cfields> *off
 265 2014-10-31 05:07:25 <Luke-Jr> fanquake: you mean next and next-test? not really
 266 2014-10-31 05:07:43 <Luke-Jr> fanquake: I went to just doing forks with things I care about merged, rather than trying to track every other PR
 267 2014-10-31 05:07:43 <fanquake> yep, couldn’t remember what you called them.
 268 2014-10-31 05:08:09 kromtar has quit (Quit: bye bye.)
 269 2014-10-31 05:08:25 <Luke-Jr> (currently built off 0.9.3 rather than master: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/luke-jr/0.9.x/0.9.3.ljr20141002/bitcoin-0.9.3.ljr20141002.patch.xz )
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 521 2014-10-31 12:14:44 <dabura667> Quick question: would a non-nTimeLock tx with a non-0xffffffff sequence be considered standard? (ie. accepted by most nodes?)
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 526 2014-10-31 12:19:31 <Luke-Jr> dabura667: IsStandard does not care about nTimeLock if sequence is ffffffff for all inputs IIRC
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 538 2014-10-31 12:37:25 <Happzz> feature suggestion: an option to only use a proxy when broadcasting transactions
 539 2014-10-31 12:37:39 Guest3670 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 540 2014-10-31 12:37:45 <Happzz> i know the client is supposed to be broadcasting transactions around the clock.
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 542 2014-10-31 12:39:59 <Happzz> but im talking about specifically transcations that belong to that wallet.
 543 2014-10-31 12:40:03 <wumpus> I think that's been suggested before, but I'm not sure it makes sense
 544 2014-10-31 12:40:31 <wumpus> the idea is that by rebroadcasting other's transactions you hide them in the noise
 545 2014-10-31 12:40:42 <wumpus> if you submit your own transactions in a different way... that'd draw attention
 546 2014-10-31 12:41:14 <Happzz> you could always just see who broadcasted it first.
 547 2014-10-31 12:41:19 <Happzz> or try to, at least
 548 2014-10-31 12:41:34 <wumpus> it would be comparable with using tor for specific sites only, which wouldn't help privacy at all
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 550 2014-10-31 12:42:14 <Happzz> using tor to broadcast transcations first, before re-broadcasting it all over the net would actually make sense
 551 2014-10-31 12:42:14 <wumpus> with help of cookies, and other ways, it can still be correlated that you're the same
 552 2014-10-31 12:43:32 <Happzz> technically, it's possible to identify who was the first one to broadcast the tx
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 554 2014-10-31 12:43:42 <Happzz> let tor be the first.
 555 2014-10-31 12:43:54 <wumpus> if your node would is reachable over both tor and plainnet (even for a short time), it's possible to determine if you're the same node
 556 2014-10-31 12:43:56 <Happzz> tor wont be need for the further broadcasting
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 558 2014-10-31 12:44:08 <Happzz> how so?
 559 2014-10-31 12:44:09 <wumpus> so if you want privacy it's better to be completely behind tor
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 564 2014-10-31 12:45:26 <Happzz> the thing is, tor is slow and the excess data transfer over tor is bad for tor
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 566 2014-10-31 12:45:45 <Happzz> so i thought, why not spare tor the unneeded bandwidth?
 567 2014-10-31 12:45:54 <wumpus> tor welcomes more usage at the moment
 568 2014-10-31 12:45:59 <wumpus> more noise = more to hide in
 569 2014-10-31 12:46:15 <wumpus> as for the initial sync just use the bootstrap.dat
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 574 2014-10-31 12:50:53 <wumpus> it's *possible* to connect to both tor and mainnet peers by using -onion instead of -proxy, but you're giving up some privacy that way, as there are ways to discover that two endpoints end at the same nodes by marking them (from memory: unique orphan transactions, probably other ways as well)
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 576 2014-10-31 12:54:04 <xiando> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2014-October/035338.html
 577 2014-10-31 12:54:52 <wumpus> I guess you could work around that by connecting out only when you want to submit a transaction, submitting the transaction, then closing the connection (or even using something like blockchain.info's pushtx over tor)
 578 2014-10-31 12:55:40 <wumpus> or make a wallet that doesn't submit the transaction at all; gives you the hex, and leaves it up to you
 579 2014-10-31 12:56:18 <wumpus> (that's the same kind of setup as offline wallets; so you could likely do it with armory already)
 580 2014-10-31 12:57:10 <iwilcox> Could a node be fingerprinted by what stales it had, too?
 581 2014-10-31 12:57:29 <wumpus> iwilcox: I think so
 582 2014-10-31 12:57:31 <iwilcox> Guess that'd also leak info about uptime.
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 585 2014-10-31 12:59:53 <iwilcox> Maybe even peer lists.
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 595 2014-10-31 13:17:57 <wumpus> iwilcox: yes, many known and unknown ways to fingerprint bitcoin nodes
 596 2014-10-31 13:18:23 <wumpus> iwilcox: I have various nodes running on both tor and plainnet, but that's to offer a service to tor users and because I don't care about hiding them
 597 2014-10-31 13:21:45 <iwilcox> Yeah, more important for nodes-as-Tor-clients than nodes-as-HSs. Perhaps some sort of auto-linearise of blocks older than X would help towards stales-based fingerprinting.
 598 2014-10-31 13:22:06 <iwilcox> Though at the moment I guess that'd make you stand out /more/ :)
 599 2014-10-31 13:22:27 <wumpus> I'm sure that with a lot of work you could avoid fingerprinting, but it may be fighting the wrong battle
 600 2014-10-31 13:23:31 <wumpus> disconnecting nodes and wallets already goes a long way; much less reasons to hide a pure infrastructure node
 601 2014-10-31 13:24:36 <iwilcox> As an HS, sure.
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 603 2014-10-31 13:25:46 <iwilcox> The set of usually-up HS peers is pretty tiny and probably trivial to sybil right now (if it isn't already!).
 604 2014-10-31 13:27:24 <wumpus> you could use the fingerprinting to *detect* sybil attacks ;)
 605 2014-10-31 13:27:34 <wumpus> (cheap ones at least)
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 609 2014-10-31 13:32:06 <wumpus> iwilcox: you wouldn't even have to linearize, dropping old stale blocks from the block index would have the same effect without having to rewrite block files
 610 2014-10-31 13:33:05 <iwilcox> Never having touched the code I still think in terms of external tools :)
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 619 2014-10-31 13:47:37 <wumpus> anyhow, in the end it's (users of) wallets that need privacy, not nodes, which just verify, store and forward  public information
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 954 2014-10-31 21:02:09 <cfields> sipa: ping. mind having a look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5162 ?
 955 2014-10-31 21:02:33 <cfields> that's the last major blocker for lib stuff. only the log/error removal remains after.
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1029 2014-10-31 22:56:58 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
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