1 2014-11-05 00:00:20 <patcon> i just can't imagine getting an understanding of that in #bitcoin proper. but if I'm still in the wrong place, just say so
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   3 2014-11-05 00:00:44 <gmaxwell> You're in the wrong place and #bitcoin would be happy to talk to you about this.
   4 2014-11-05 00:01:06 <patcon> gmaxwell: right on. sorry man
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  22 2014-11-05 00:16:31 <dhill> aburan28: the entire mempool
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 162 2014-11-05 04:05:14 <wangchun> gmaxwell: do you have plan to increase 1 MB block size limit in near future?
 163 2014-11-05 04:06:40 <phantomcircuit> wangchun, that is not going to happen
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 166 2014-11-05 04:11:12 <netg> /
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 173 2014-11-05 04:21:44 <justanotheruser> wangchun: it isn't his decision
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 176 2014-11-05 04:22:38 <justanotheruser> netg: you have reached your daily limit of three /
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 178 2014-11-05 04:24:10 <netg> jeah fuck, i gonna setup some script to deny me from speaking to this chan
 179 2014-11-05 04:24:14 <netg> sorry
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 268 2014-11-05 06:49:16 <wumpus> sipa: fine with me, I was planning to bump pruning to 0.11 anyhow as no way it will be tested enough by time  of 0.10 release
 269 2014-11-05 06:49:54 <sipa> wumpus: i think it's pretty close - if there's hope of getting pruning in 0.10, i'd rather work on making that happen
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 271 2014-11-05 06:51:22 <wumpus> in that case IMO we need to make sure it is mergable this week
 272 2014-11-05 06:52:34 <wumpus> I've called for testing for the pull both here and on twitter, someone even posted it on reddit, but it ddn't have much of an effect
 273 2014-11-05 06:53:10 <sipa> maybe maaku is right, and nobody is really interested in this without the ability to run a wallet on it...
 274 2014-11-05 06:53:18 <wumpus> that tells me it's not that urgent
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 276 2014-11-05 06:53:51 <sipa> the reason i like it because it may help breaking people's (unnecessary) expectation that full nodes will always have all data
 277 2014-11-05 06:54:10 <sipa> +is
 278 2014-11-05 06:54:16 <wumpus> I agree
 279 2014-11-05 06:55:16 <wumpus> don't get me wrong, I think it's good to have it too - I'm just afraid merging it will cause some regressions too short before the release
 280 2014-11-05 06:55:33 <wumpus> (so with pruning disabled)
 281 2014-11-05 06:56:35 <wumpus> we can call the feature itself experimental - do you think merging the code change itself is unlikely to break non-pruning functionality?
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 283 2014-11-05 06:57:50 <sipa> i think that should be reasonably safe, as the unexpected behaviour will be from combinations of blockindex states that are new
 284 2014-11-05 06:58:09 <sipa> but if you don't prune, that shouldn't happen, and without pruning there is even a check to see that all data is present afaik
 285 2014-11-05 06:58:39 <wumpus> ok
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 312 2014-11-05 08:00:06 <gmaxwell> I've tested it through a couple times, but don't yet think it's adequate. ... really I don't care if it works: we can hide the option if we feel a bit uneasy about it. What I do care about is that it doesn't break anything else when its not being used.  But I don't want to prolong progress on it further. (esp since the person proposing the patch has been very responsive)
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 315 2014-11-05 08:05:34 <wumpus> right
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 317 2014-11-05 08:08:14 <wumpus> that would be another option, merge it but hide it, and don't announce it as 0.10 feature
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 319 2014-11-05 08:09:08 <wumpus> ... but I'm not so sure of the advantages of that compared to merging it after the 0.10 branch
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 323 2014-11-05 08:11:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's also down grade incompatible if you use it, to that encourages getting it in earlier.
 324 2014-11-05 08:13:08 <wumpus> but how sure can we be that the autoprune that will end up as 'official feature' in 0.11 will still be compatible with what we merge now? if it's not adequate yet, then the implementation may still be quite unstable
 325 2014-11-05 08:13:35 <wumpus> then again if you prefer to merge it now, and sipa does too, I'm ok with it
 326 2014-11-05 08:14:15 <wumpus> I'm not against it, just a bit concerned
 327 2014-11-05 08:14:29 <gmaxwell> I think we're okay with the functionality now, and think it should probably be compatible... It's just review and testing.  Well as you should be.
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 375 2014-11-05 09:17:34 <paveljanik> wumpus, cfields: now you can choose ;-)
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 383 2014-11-05 09:29:12 <wumpus> I leave this to cfields :)
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 394 2014-11-05 09:45:40 <sipa> wumpus: haha, the guy with nick 'wumpus' on github is having a hard time :)
 395 2014-11-05 09:45:45 timothy has joined
 396 2014-11-05 09:45:53 <wumpus> yes poor him
 397 2014-11-05 09:47:07 blackjid_ has joined
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 399 2014-11-05 09:47:44 <moa> one too many wumpi
 400 2014-11-05 09:47:59 <wumpus> wonder if github has an option to ignore mentions in a certain project
 401 2014-11-05 09:49:17 <paveljanik> I have to apologize to him ;-)
 402 2014-11-05 09:49:53 <wumpus> yes you should ;-)
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 405 2014-11-05 09:53:02 <paveljanik> done ;-)
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 449 2014-11-05 10:55:07 <CodeShark> would anyone happen to have any statistics on percentage of transactions that are pay-to-script-hash?
 450 2014-11-05 10:55:22 <CodeShark> or better yet, a tool that can scan the blockchain and construct a pretty graphic? :)
 451 2014-11-05 10:55:59 thermoman has quit (Quit: Bye)
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 455 2014-11-05 10:58:24 <moa> http://blog.greenaddress.it/2014/08/19/pay-to-script-hash-stats/
 456 2014-11-05 10:58:31 <moa> CodeShark: ^^
 457 2014-11-05 10:58:42 simondlr has joined
 458 2014-11-05 10:59:00 <CodeShark> ah, thank you :)
 459 2014-11-05 10:59:06 <moa> http://p2sh.info/
 460 2014-11-05 10:59:06 <gmaxwell> moa: thanks thats exatly the page I was looking for.
 461 2014-11-05 10:59:11 <moa> is the source
 462 2014-11-05 10:59:16 <moa> which i recalled
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 464 2014-11-05 10:59:40 <moa> 1.4%
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 466 2014-11-05 10:59:59 <CodeShark> wonderful, thank you
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 482 2014-11-05 11:28:05 <Elbandi> hi, i need a little coding help
 483 2014-11-05 11:28:07 <Elbandi> I make a new feature for bitcoin, and i need to run thread with parameter.
 484 2014-11-05 11:28:07 <Elbandi> But i dont know how to modify the TraceThread function to pass parameter(s).
 485 2014-11-05 11:28:10 <Elbandi> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/util.h#L200
 486 2014-11-05 11:28:13 <Elbandi> can anyone help me? my knowledge for this c++ "magic" is poor :(
 487 2014-11-05 11:30:53 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 488 2014-11-05 11:31:01 <CodeShark> what do you not get about it?
 489 2014-11-05 11:31:16 <CodeShark> oh, you need to add a parameter...
 490 2014-11-05 11:31:51 <CodeShark> you could bind the parameter to a function and then pass that
 491 2014-11-05 11:31:59 <CodeShark> using boost::bind or something like that
 492 2014-11-05 11:33:14 <wumpus> make a template <typename Callable, typename T> void TraceThread(const char* name,  Callable func, T arg)  ... func(arg)?
 493 2014-11-05 11:33:42 <CodeShark> you can also do that :)
 494 2014-11-05 11:33:43 <wumpus> then indeed use boost::bind (which is already used) to bind the arg
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 499 2014-11-05 11:37:15 <CodeShark> you can write a class for a callable object where its constructor can automatically bind the arguments for you
 500 2014-11-05 11:37:54 <wumpus> essentially what boost::bind does
 501 2014-11-05 11:38:37 <CodeShark> you wouldn't even need to make an additional TraceThread template
 502 2014-11-05 11:39:29 <wumpus> indeed! you don't, you could use boost::bind() to curry the argument into the function that you pass into it
 503 2014-11-05 11:39:29 <Elbandi> yeah, i want to modity the current TraceThread
 504 2014-11-05 11:40:00 thermoman has joined
 505 2014-11-05 11:40:02 <CodeShark> TraceThread("MyFunc", boost::bind(MyFunc, param1, param2, …));
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 510 2014-11-05 11:46:10 <wumpus> CodeShark: hah, it's not so easy
 511 2014-11-05 11:46:37 <wumpus> e.g. this doesn't work (with ThreadMessageHandler(int) ): threadGroup.create_thread(boost::bind(&TraceThread<void (*)()>, "msghand", boost::bind(&ThreadMessageHandler, 10)));
 512 2014-11-05 11:46:56 <Elbandi> thx, i think, i pull the feature without threaded, i dont want to work unnecessarily if devs dont like my feature...
 513 2014-11-05 11:47:39 <wumpus> why not bypass TraceThread at first, just use thread_group.create_thread() and write your own tracing around it
 514 2014-11-05 11:48:04 <CodeShark> indeed
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 517 2014-11-05 11:49:20 <CodeShark> C++11 lambdas provide an even more elegant solution :)
 518 2014-11-05 11:49:28 Raziel has joined
 519 2014-11-05 11:49:41 <wumpus> sure
 520 2014-11-05 11:49:54 <Elbandi> that a big "magic" for me :(
 521 2014-11-05 11:50:02 <wumpus> but unnecessary, I mean, passing an argument to a  thread anno 2014 should be a solved problem
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 527 2014-11-05 11:51:59 <CodeShark> well, it took until recently for threading to even become a standard part of the C++ language
 528 2014-11-05 11:52:16 <CodeShark> or at least a part of the standard C++ libs
 529 2014-11-05 11:53:06 <wumpus> ... yes, it's sad when you think about it
 530 2014-11-05 11:54:17 <wumpus> so many years into the internet age and threading and networking aren't part of the standard library
 531 2014-11-05 11:54:47 <wumpus> well, threading now is
 532 2014-11-05 11:56:39 <CodeShark> as far as networking, berkeley sockets became the de facto "standard" initially…but writing async apps with berkeley sockets is a real pain in the ass
 533 2014-11-05 11:57:22 <CodeShark> the closest we have to a C++ networking standard right now is probably asio
 534 2014-11-05 11:57:22 smorim has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 535 2014-11-05 11:58:42 <wumpus> nah, windows doesn't really implement berkeley sockets
 536 2014-11-05 11:59:27 <CodeShark> winsock! :)
 537 2014-11-05 11:59:29 <wumpus> a language-level standard would have made sense  - even if it was at the C level, not the C++ level... heck, even Java got that right
 538 2014-11-05 12:00:04 <CodeShark> the one thing I like about the Java ecosystem is the libraries and consistency in style convention
 539 2014-11-05 12:00:05 owlhooter has joined
 540 2014-11-05 12:00:15 <CodeShark> but I think that's about it :p
 541 2014-11-05 12:00:23 closer has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 543 2014-11-05 12:01:07 <CodeShark> to be fair, though, Java was developed specifically with the intention of being able to serve applications over a network
 544 2014-11-05 12:01:24 <wumpus> but that was in the 90's
 545 2014-11-05 12:01:48 <wumpus> we're in the 10's now and we still have to worry about platform-specific networking and threading
 546 2014-11-05 12:01:53 akstunt600 has joined
 547 2014-11-05 12:02:40 <ubuntu_>  
 548 2014-11-05 12:02:43 <CodeShark> asio and std::thread seem to work ok :)
 549 2014-11-05 12:02:55 closer has joined
 550 2014-11-05 12:03:17 <wumpus> I'd be fine with that if people would finally stop complaining about boost
 551 2014-11-05 12:03:43 <CodeShark> boost has become a testing ground for what are likely to become future std features
 552 2014-11-05 12:06:48 <CodeShark> wumpus: why have people been complaining about boost?
 553 2014-11-05 12:07:45 <wumpus> CodeShark: because it gives some dependency issues with dynamic linking on some platforms, ask cfields
 554 2014-11-05 12:07:46 <HM_> boost is awesome
 555 2014-11-05 12:08:10 <HM_> it lets me write fewer lines of code but at a slower line rate
 556 2014-11-05 12:08:41 <CodeShark> I suspected it might have been cfields complaining :)
 557 2014-11-05 12:08:42 <HM_> and 50 times as many ">" and "<" tokens
 558 2014-11-05 12:09:12 imfaust has joined
 559 2014-11-05 12:09:15 <wumpus> CodeShark: well not only him, but he has the most convincing argument to not use it in the consensus liibrary...
 560 2014-11-05 12:10:07 <CodeShark> only some parts of boost require such linking - much of it is headers-only
 561 2014-11-05 12:10:59 <wumpus> indeed
 562 2014-11-05 12:11:56 gdm85 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 563 2014-11-05 12:12:21 <HM_> wumpus, std::thread
 564 2014-11-05 12:12:33 <wumpus> HM_: huh?
 565 2014-11-05 12:12:49 xenog has joined
 566 2014-11-05 12:12:58 <HM_> oh nm
 567 2014-11-05 12:13:07 <HM_> i thought CodeShark had said use boost::thread
 568 2014-11-05 12:13:17 gdm85 has joined
 569 2014-11-05 12:13:34 <wumpus> we already use boost::thread, and will migrate to std::thread when that makes sense, but thanks...
 570 2014-11-05 12:14:11 <CodeShark> %s/boost::thread/std::thread/g :)
 571 2014-11-05 12:14:23 GM0127 has joined
 572 2014-11-05 12:14:59 <CodeShark> still waiting for std::asio :)
 573 2014-11-05 12:15:24 <wumpus> indeed
 574 2014-11-05 12:15:25 <HM_> I'm praying they're conservative when importing asio
 575 2014-11-05 12:15:56 benten has joined
 576 2014-11-05 12:15:58 <wumpus> or *any useful network library at all*
 577 2014-11-05 12:16:15 <wumpus> just standardize on something already
 578 2014-11-05 12:17:10 <CodeShark> https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/blob/master/deps/CoinQ/src/CoinQ_peer_io.cpp
 579 2014-11-05 12:18:23 <HM_> sexy use of std algorithms
 580 2014-11-05 12:18:24 IrishGringo has joined
 581 2014-11-05 12:18:52 <HM_> like ermahgerd, you're using std::search
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 584 2014-11-05 12:20:19 <HM_> CodeShark, very nice
 585 2014-11-05 12:20:24 <CodeShark> thx :)
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 589 2014-11-05 12:23:34 <HM_> CodeShark, boost::shared_ptr<uchar_vector> data(new ...
 590 2014-11-05 12:23:43 <HM_> you should replace this pattern with boost::make_shared
 591 2014-11-05 12:23:58 <CodeShark> what would be the advantage?
 592 2014-11-05 12:24:21 benten_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 593 2014-11-05 12:25:09 <HM_> CodeShark, shared_ptr has heap allocated shared state, make_shared combines the allocations for T and that shared state
 594 2014-11-05 12:25:29 <CodeShark> ah - interesting point
 595 2014-11-05 12:25:40 <HM_> also it enables shared_from_this if you want to use it with class types
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 598 2014-11-05 12:26:55 <timothy> hi, to uniform archlinux with the rest of the world (BDB version), I'd like to use the "suggested" BDB version to build bitcoin
 599 2014-11-05 12:27:24 <timothy> the problem is that actually the bitcoin packages are using 5.3.28, any advice to support downgrade?
 600 2014-11-05 12:27:44 <timothy> something like database backup using new version and import to old version?
 601 2014-11-05 12:27:55 <wumpus>  db5.1_dump wallet.dat.db5 | db4.8_load wallet.dat.db4
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 603 2014-11-05 12:29:52 <HM_> timothy, there are multiple versions in AUR
 604 2014-11-05 12:29:58 <HM_> not sure if they can be installed in parallel
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 610 2014-11-05 12:41:27 <CodeShark> I haven't ever found the need to import wallets created using older versions :p
 611 2014-11-05 12:41:38 <CodeShark> so I always use the newest BDB if I must use the bitcoind wallet
 612 2014-11-05 12:42:00 <CodeShark> or rather, I haven't ever found the need to export my wallets to older versions
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 614 2014-11-05 12:42:54 <CodeShark> in any case, if I really want to keep a wallet backup I'd export to a universally portable format, like base58 priv keys
 615 2014-11-05 12:43:35 <CodeShark> we really shouldn't be depending on the specifics of the database engine for backups
 616 2014-11-05 12:43:48 <wumpus> use the dumpwallet/importwallet RPC?
 617 2014-11-05 12:43:56 <CodeShark> right
 618 2014-11-05 12:43:57 <HM_> i'd probably go with a brainwallet printout buried in my grandmas photo album
 619 2014-11-05 12:44:11 <sipa> HM_: if you print it, it's not a brainwallet
 620 2014-11-05 12:44:42 <HM_> even if you encode it as a sudoku puzzle? :(
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 623 2014-11-05 12:45:14 <HM_> actually that would be a pretty cool steganography hack. i wonder how much entropy is in a sudoku puzzle
 624 2014-11-05 12:45:14 <wumpus> *huh, what is this brain doing in my grandmas photo album*
 625 2014-11-05 12:45:32 <CodeShark> grandma was a neurosurgeon
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 629 2014-11-05 12:47:55 <CodeShark> interestingly, the specifics of the database engine have come to bite us in the ass at least once when it comes to blockchain storage :p
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 632 2014-11-05 12:49:20 <CodeShark> so for the consensus code, database version is pretty important
 633 2014-11-05 12:49:32 <CodeShark> but for the wallet, meh :p
 634 2014-11-05 12:49:51 <wumpus> well, yes, it be annoying at most for the wallet
 635 2014-11-05 12:50:23 <wumpus> (ie, if you go from your own compiled version with 5.x to downloaded binary with 4.8 you have to manually downgrade)
 636 2014-11-05 12:50:45 <HM_> Aren't wallets small enough to warrant a simplistic format?
 637 2014-11-05 12:51:06 <wumpus> depends
 638 2014-11-05 12:51:19 <wumpus> there's the wide gap between simple personal wallets and enterprise stuff
 639 2014-11-05 12:51:40 <HM_> CSV = personal, XML = enterprise :}
 640 2014-11-05 12:51:50 <CodeShark> people still use XML?
 641 2014-11-05 12:51:53 <wumpus> but every wallet I know uses some form of database
 642 2014-11-05 12:52:04 <wumpus> even the android/bitcoinJ ones IIRC
 643 2014-11-05 12:52:16 <HM_> sqlite?
 644 2014-11-05 12:52:29 <CodeShark> my wallet supports several SQL databases but can also export to a serialized text file
 645 2014-11-05 12:52:52 <wumpus> it's not necessary of course, but if you have (changable) metadata associated with transactions it's no longer just a dumb list of keys
 646 2014-11-05 12:53:32 <CodeShark> data migration isn't an entirely trivial issue
 647 2014-11-05 12:54:51 <wumpus> sure, you can always export to a serialized text file
 648 2014-11-05 12:56:32 <HM_> well that's disappointing
 649 2014-11-05 12:56:44 <HM_> there are only 6,670,903,752,021,072,936,960 different 9x9 sudoku puzzles
 650 2014-11-05 12:56:51 <HM_> ~72 bits
 651 2014-11-05 12:57:01 <CodeShark> use two of them :)
 652 2014-11-05 12:58:40 <CodeShark> or use key stretching
 653 2014-11-05 12:58:56 aburan28 has joined
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 657 2014-11-05 13:00:46 <HM_>  12×12 would probably cut it
 658 2014-11-05 13:02:47 GM0127 has joined
 659 2014-11-05 13:02:51 <CodeShark> that's actually a really interesting idea - problem is if it becomes too common it becomes practically useless
 660 2014-11-05 13:03:02 <sipa> why?
 661 2014-11-05 13:03:42 <CodeShark> well, I suppose you could still use a secret key to transform the puzzle into your entropy bits
 662 2014-11-05 13:04:01 <CodeShark> but the whole point of steganography is to hide the fact that you're hiding something
 663 2014-11-05 13:04:45 <CodeShark> if everyone starts using sudoku puzzles for paper backups your backups become more suspect
 664 2014-11-05 13:04:47 <HM_> stick it on your fridge, nobody will ever suspect. they'll just think you're reaaally bad as sudoku
 665 2014-11-05 13:05:38 <HM_> and if you want to troll you go to a bitcoin hackathon and litter the place with sudoku puzzles :P
 666 2014-11-05 13:05:46 <CodeShark> lol
 667 2014-11-05 13:06:08 <Luke-Jr> ugh, these black icons are ugly
 668 2014-11-05 13:06:23 <CodeShark> don't be an icon racist
 669 2014-11-05 13:06:37 Centaure has joined
 670 2014-11-05 13:06:46 <Luke-Jr> HM_: CSV/XML maybe makes sense for user-servicable data, but wallets are not that.
 671 2014-11-05 13:07:00 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: pfft, the black icons are icon-racist against every other colour!
 672 2014-11-05 13:07:32 Jokosh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 673 2014-11-05 13:08:21 <HM_> and once someone comes up with OCR for sudoku puzzles you start generating them as mangled captchas, then we end up in this weird  Salvador Dalí realisation where everyone is sitting around with contorted faces trying to solve contorted sudoku puzzles
 674 2014-11-05 13:09:22 serialhasher has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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 676 2014-11-05 13:09:40 <wumpus> hehe
 677 2014-11-05 13:10:08 <Luke-Jr> one time I wrote down an ECDSA privkey as a form of art.
 678 2014-11-05 13:10:20 <Luke-Jr> whether I could decipher it later or not, I was unsure enough to never use it <.<
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 681 2014-11-05 13:12:54 <CodeShark> this idea can be nicely abstracted, though - you could provide any collection whose members can be systematically derived from the input in an injective map
 682 2014-11-05 13:13:11 <CodeShark> a map that can be easily inverted
 683 2014-11-05 13:13:45 <CodeShark> so all you need to do is provide the code to derive the collection member
 684 2014-11-05 13:14:16 <HM_> yes...what you said
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 686 2014-11-05 13:14:52 <CodeShark> someone could use sudoku puzzles, someone else might use rubik's cube states
 687 2014-11-05 13:15:45 <HM_> lol rubik cube states is evil, because you have to take the output of your program and actually configure your rubik cube to match it
 688 2014-11-05 13:15:59 <HM_> you'd need an ancillary program that helped you with that
 689 2014-11-05 13:16:04 <Luke-Jr> lol
 690 2014-11-05 13:16:13 <CodeShark> it's not too hard to map the natural numbers to rubik's cube states
 691 2014-11-05 13:16:28 <CodeShark> there are only so many different possible permutations and rotations
 692 2014-11-05 13:16:57 dfletcher has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 693 2014-11-05 13:17:12 <HM_> then you're going to want to dip the thing in glue, lest a child gets hold of it, or you get very bored one day while day dreaming
 694 2014-11-05 13:17:25 <Luke-Jr> one time I was frustrated by a rubik's cube, so I cheated and entered its state into an online solver
 695 2014-11-05 13:17:30 <CodeShark> or just take a couple photographs of it from different angles
 696 2014-11-05 13:17:33 <Luke-Jr> turned out it was acutally impossible :/
 697 2014-11-05 13:17:41 <CodeShark> I wrote a solver for 2x2x2
 698 2014-11-05 13:17:59 <CodeShark> the 3x3x3 has been solved…but it requires something a little more clever than mere brute force
 699 2014-11-05 13:18:03 <CodeShark> to be feasible
 700 2014-11-05 13:18:49 <CodeShark> a brute force solver is essentially the same as chess endgame tablebases
 701 2014-11-05 13:19:18 devthedev has joined
 702 2014-11-05 13:19:26 <CodeShark> you start from the won/solved position and work backwards
 703 2014-11-05 13:19:51 <CodeShark> and track the distance between each state and the won/solved position
 704 2014-11-05 13:19:54 <wumpus> HM_: hah, yes, I'd also be scared of that when using the old permutation of playing cards idea, someone may pick it up and shuffle it :p
 705 2014-11-05 13:20:51 sdfvsfgvsdf has joined
 706 2014-11-05 13:20:56 <HM_> because people still play with playing cards outside of a gambling context? :P
 707 2014-11-05 13:21:13 <HM_> maybe if there's a solar flare and the planet loses power for 3 days
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 714 2014-11-05 13:23:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is the 0.9.x branch still maintained in the master github?
 715 2014-11-05 13:24:10 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: when necessary (ie a problem appears that needs to be backported)
 716 2014-11-05 13:24:20 <CodeShark> here's a skewb puzzle solver I wrote: https://github.com/CodeShark/skewb/blob/master/src/skewb.cpp
 717 2014-11-05 13:25:19 <wumpus> HM_: well in that case I'd be more worried about not being eaten than about my bitcoins :)
 718 2014-11-05 13:25:36 <CodeShark> all rubik's-like puzzles can be brute-forced essentially like this…but beyond a certain statespace size it becomes infeasible :)
 719 2014-11-05 13:26:24 ThomasV has joined
 720 2014-11-05 13:26:33 <HM_> unless you're the NSA</conspiracy>
 721 2014-11-05 13:26:44 <HM_> they've been working on theirs since the 70s ;)
 722 2014-11-05 13:27:09 Andymeows has joined
 723 2014-11-05 13:27:14 <HM_> i think they may have even engineered a backdoor in to the Rubik cube design ;)
 724 2014-11-05 13:27:21 <CodeShark> lol
 725 2014-11-05 13:27:32 <wumpus> hehe
 726 2014-11-05 13:29:34 Centaure_ has joined
 727 2014-11-05 13:30:44 bit2017 has joined
 728 2014-11-05 13:31:14 <wumpus> CodeShark: one kind of puzzle that I noticed doesn't yield to naive brute forcing that well is the sliding puzzle
 729 2014-11-05 13:31:32 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 730 2014-11-05 13:31:45 <HM_> patents are literally the reason we can't have nice things
 731 2014-11-05 13:31:53 johnsoft has joined
 732 2014-11-05 13:31:53 <wumpus> just too many possible sequences of moves (even if you exclude loops)
 733 2014-11-05 13:32:02 davout has joined
 734 2014-11-05 13:32:26 <HM_> TLS-SRP went to RFC with SHA1 as the password deriviation function :(, unless you control the client and pre-stretch the password it's useless, and doing so wouldn't be interopable.
 735 2014-11-05 13:32:30 <CodeShark> wumpus: let's see…for the 15 tile slide puzzle there are essentially 16! permutations, right?
 736 2014-11-05 13:32:37 Centaure has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 737 2014-11-05 13:32:42 <CodeShark> assuming all permutations are reachable
 738 2014-11-05 13:32:45 <CodeShark> which we have to prove
 739 2014-11-05 13:32:54 <wumpus> not all permutations are reachable :-)
 740 2014-11-05 13:33:08 <CodeShark> only odd permutations?
 741 2014-11-05 13:33:11 <wumpus> you can never swap two tiles
 742 2014-11-05 13:33:13 <CodeShark> I mean
 743 2014-11-05 13:33:17 <CodeShark> only even permutations are reachable
 744 2014-11-05 13:33:22 <CodeShark> so then 16!/2
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 747 2014-11-05 13:34:23 <CodeShark> 10,461,394,944,000
 748 2014-11-05 13:34:41 <CodeShark> that's feasible with today's computers
 749 2014-11-05 13:35:37 NewLiberty has joined
 750 2014-11-05 13:36:10 <CodeShark> err…wait
 751 2014-11-05 13:36:21 bit2017 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 752 2014-11-05 13:36:27 <CodeShark> I'm not convinced only even permutations are reachable
 753 2014-11-05 13:36:38 <CodeShark> the empty tile can surely be swapped with any adjacent tile
 754 2014-11-05 13:36:55 <CodeShark> oh...
 755 2014-11-05 13:37:08 <CodeShark> but then the next tile move also swaps with the empty tile
 756 2014-11-05 13:38:16 ruukasu has joined
 757 2014-11-05 13:38:38 <CodeShark> then there might be some symmetries that would allow us to limit the search space
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 763 2014-11-05 13:39:06 <CodeShark> but let's say the number is less than 16! for sure :)
 764 2014-11-05 13:39:47 <sipa> HM_: what's wrong with SHA1 for derivation?
 765 2014-11-05 13:41:40 Andymeows has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 766 2014-11-05 13:44:00 <CodeShark> for the sliding puzzle there's probably an algorithmic approach to finding the shortest solution
 767 2014-11-05 13:44:09 <CodeShark> that doesn't require brute force
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 769 2014-11-05 13:44:30 <CodeShark> because every move only affects one tile
 770 2014-11-05 13:45:22 <CodeShark> with rubik's-like puzzles, it's often the case that the shortest solution (in terms of number of moves) is not the most human-intuitive solution
 771 2014-11-05 13:46:06 <CodeShark> human-intuitive solutions tend to isolate portions of the state space and operate on them independently
 772 2014-11-05 13:46:31 derbumi_ has joined
 773 2014-11-05 13:46:38 <fanquake> Are we talking sliding puzzles like this?
 774 2014-11-05 13:46:45 <fanquake> http://n-puzzle-solver.appspot.com/
 775 2014-11-05 13:47:26 <CodeShark> yes
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 777 2014-11-05 13:47:47 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes AFAIK for the NxN sliding puzzles there are more efficient solutions, my point was just that they don't yield to brute force very well. For more general sliding block puzzles there are none, you can even build logic gates from them, e.g. see http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/bob/sliding-blocks.pdf  :)
 778 2014-11-05 13:48:31 akstunt600 has joined
 779 2014-11-05 13:48:49 <CodeShark> heh, neat :
 780 2014-11-05 13:48:52 <CodeShark> :)
 781 2014-11-05 13:49:07 <sipa> ;;bloks
 782 2014-11-05 13:49:07 <gribble> Error: "bloks" is not a valid command.
 783 2014-11-05 13:49:09 <sipa> ;;blocks
 784 2014-11-05 13:49:10 <gribble> 328679
 785 2014-11-05 13:49:40 <sontol> hi guys
 786 2014-11-05 13:49:47 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 787 2014-11-05 13:49:53 <sontol> I'm planning to create opencl version of libsecp256k1
 788 2014-11-05 13:50:03 <sontol> anyone has good testcase program?
 789 2014-11-05 13:50:13 <sipa> sontol: the existing unit tests  in libsecp256k1? :)
 790 2014-11-05 13:50:21 <sontol> the bench?
 791 2014-11-05 13:50:25 <sipa> the bench_verify program
 792 2014-11-05 13:50:29 <sipa> or the tests programs
 793 2014-11-05 13:50:30 <sontol> i thought that one only supposed to return 0/10000??
 794 2014-11-05 13:50:33 * HM_ grumbles something about Intel and opencl on Linux
 795 2014-11-05 13:50:49 <sontol> at least when i read the program
 796 2014-11-05 13:51:01 <sipa> sontol: not anymore
 797 2014-11-05 13:51:05 <sontol> oh
 798 2014-11-05 13:51:06 <sontol> ok
 799 2014-11-05 13:51:11 <sontol> will take a look again
 800 2014-11-05 13:51:12 <sipa> it just doesn't do anything but run
 801 2014-11-05 13:52:25 <sontol> is that the one in bitcoin's repo?
 802 2014-11-05 13:52:38 <sipa> yes, that's the upstream repo
 803 2014-11-05 13:53:15 <sipa> sontol: are you looking for a benchmark or for testing code correctness?
 804 2014-11-05 13:53:22 <sontol> code correctness
 805 2014-11-05 13:53:32 <sipa> there are plenty of unit tests in tests
 806 2014-11-05 13:53:35 <sipa> src/tests.c
 807 2014-11-05 13:54:36 <sontol> I see
 808 2014-11-05 13:54:48 <HM_> I'm surprised nobody has done a CL variant of k1 already
 809 2014-11-05 13:54:50 imfaust has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 810 2014-11-05 13:55:18 <sipa> well there's oclvanitygen :)
 811 2014-11-05 13:55:30 <sontol> do you have the link for the upstream version?
 812 2014-11-05 13:55:37 <sipa> sontol: you have it
 813 2014-11-05 13:55:43 <sipa> sontol: github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1
 814 2014-11-05 13:55:47 <sontol> oh ok
 815 2014-11-05 13:55:55 <sontol> it's not standalone anymore?
 816 2014-11-05 13:56:01 <sipa> define 'standalone' ?
 817 2014-11-05 13:56:19 <sontol> i thought last time i could just download libsecp256k1 only
 818 2014-11-05 13:56:25 <sipa> you still can
 819 2014-11-05 13:56:33 <sipa> in fact, there is no other way
 820 2014-11-05 13:56:33 <CodeShark> you can also use git subtree :)
 821 2014-11-05 13:56:35 <sontol> i mean not inside the bitcoin
 822 2014-11-05 13:56:38 <sontol> yeah
 823 2014-11-05 13:56:42 <sipa> it's not part of bitcoin
 824 2014-11-05 13:56:43 <sontol> still a github noob
 825 2014-11-05 13:56:55 <sipa> just hosted under the bitcoin project
 826 2014-11-05 13:57:15 <sontol> let me take another look
 827 2014-11-05 13:57:32 <sipa> git clone https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1
 828 2014-11-05 13:57:41 <sipa> and you'll get a repo with the latest code, and just libsecp256k1
 829 2014-11-05 13:58:15 <sontol> yup
 830 2014-11-05 13:58:17 <sontol> thanks
 831 2014-11-05 13:58:38 <HM_> sipa, oclvanitygen presumably doesn't need all the operations?
 832 2014-11-05 13:58:39 <sipa> CodeShark: i know it's been a while since you contributed anything, but by now signing should be entirely constant time in (except for potential doubling/cancellation during multiplication, which should be non-exploitable through blinding)
 833 2014-11-05 13:58:43 <sontol> i believe i can get the precompute part faster
 834 2014-11-05 13:58:53 <sontol> and get a larger table
 835 2014-11-05 13:59:04 <sipa> faster... i doubt it
 836 2014-11-05 13:59:09 <CodeShark> sipa: neat - what about cache access patterns? :)
 837 2014-11-05 13:59:13 <sipa> CodeShark: dealt with
 838 2014-11-05 13:59:46 <sipa> sontol: i doubt that constructing the table takes longer than sending work to the GPU and getting it back (but i'm no OpenCL expert)
 839 2014-11-05 14:00:03 <sipa> and it's already very large...
 840 2014-11-05 14:00:08 <sontol> well
 841 2014-11-05 14:00:19 <sontol> i'm not really sure as well
 842 2014-11-05 14:00:46 <sontol> basically i'm trying to get 2x,4x,6x,8x,...
 843 2014-11-05 14:01:26 <sipa> you need 1x,3x,5x,7x,9x for wnaf
 844 2014-11-05 14:01:41 <sontol> yeah
 845 2014-11-05 14:01:47 <sontol> just subtract by 1
 846 2014-11-05 14:01:55 <sontol> which can be one all at once
 847 2014-11-05 14:02:02 <sipa> eh no
 848 2014-11-05 14:02:14 <sontol> ??
 849 2014-11-05 14:02:27 <sontol> first i get 2,4,6
 850 2014-11-05 14:02:32 hearn has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 851 2014-11-05 14:02:36 <sontol> 8 and 10 can be done in parallel
 852 2014-11-05 14:02:40 <sipa> ah, i see
 853 2014-11-05 14:02:44 <sontol> from 6+2 and 6+4
 854 2014-11-05 14:02:47 <sipa> yeah, got it
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 856 2014-11-05 14:03:03 <sontol> not sure how i good it is though
 857 2014-11-05 14:03:25 <sipa> precomputing currently takes 5ms here
 858 2014-11-05 14:04:59 <sipa> CodeShark: it's a bit dense, but it's described here: https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/ecmult_gen_impl.h#L14-25
 859 2014-11-05 14:06:00 <CodeShark> for signing performance isn't that big of an issue, though - so even a relatively inefficient implementation that's transparently constant-time will probably do
 860 2014-11-05 14:07:00 <sipa> iirc it caused a 50% slowdown or when the byte slicing was introduced
 861 2014-11-05 14:07:07 <sipa> *or so
 862 2014-11-05 14:08:41 <sipa> sontol: more interesting use of OpenCL would be to just do multiple EC multiplications in parallel
 863 2014-11-05 14:08:56 <sipa> sontol: so validation wouldn't actually be made faster, but you could do many validations at the same time
 864 2014-11-05 14:09:01 <sipa> which is relevant when validating a block
 865 2014-11-05 14:09:05 <sontol> hmmm
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 867 2014-11-05 14:10:04 <sontol> it will require you to change the downstream code though
 868 2014-11-05 14:10:06 <sontol> right?
 869 2014-11-05 14:10:18 <sipa> sure
 870 2014-11-05 14:11:01 <sipa> but it's not like you can replace a C library with an OpenCL-based version just as a drop-in replacement either
 871 2014-11-05 14:11:11 <sipa> things like OS integration, dependencies, ...
 872 2014-11-05 14:11:24 Andymeows has joined
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 874 2014-11-05 14:14:15 <CodeShark> validation jobs could be formatted in some standard fashion
 875 2014-11-05 14:14:15 <sontol> yeah
 876 2014-11-05 14:14:41 <sontol> I've just started on opencl as well
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 880 2014-11-05 14:15:02 <sontol> just want to get some practice
 881 2014-11-05 14:15:07 <sontol> to get a hang of it
 882 2014-11-05 14:16:08 <CodeShark> the validation engine could check the block header, outpoints, and scripts - then produce a list of ecdsa keys, hashes, and signatures
 883 2014-11-05 14:16:22 <CodeShark> then send it off to be validated by a separate process
 884 2014-11-05 14:16:38 <sipa> CodeShark: what if you have an OP_CHECKSIG OP_NOT? :)
 885 2014-11-05 14:16:50 <CodeShark> lol
 886 2014-11-05 14:17:03 <sipa> (it's still possible, but you need some pretty complex logic to combine the results again, unfortunately)
 887 2014-11-05 14:18:08 <CodeShark> in principle yes - but in practice, perhaps no
 888 2014-11-05 14:18:19 <CodeShark> we're not really using very much of the bitcoin script anyhow
 889 2014-11-05 14:18:34 <sipa> doesn't matter, if you do it wrong, you're vulnerable to a fork
 890 2014-11-05 14:18:53 <sipa> you can of course recognize the common case, and accelerate that, and do the special cases separately
 891 2014-11-05 14:18:58 <CodeShark> if 99.9% of cases can be dealt with easily, we can just detect the other .1% and handle it separately
 892 2014-11-05 14:19:07 <hearn> hey sipa
 893 2014-11-05 14:19:08 <sipa> what if it's suddenly not 0.1%?
 894 2014-11-05 14:19:12 <sipa> hi hearn!
 895 2014-11-05 14:20:08 <sipa> CodeShark: in general you should aim to optimize the worst case, and not the expected case, or you introduce a potential remotely-triggerable performance reduction
 896 2014-11-05 14:20:37 <CodeShark> sipa: in any case, the script logic could be dealt with by the validation engine and only the ecdsa validation delegated to the separate process
 897 2014-11-05 14:20:51 <CodeShark> the ecdsa validator could return a vector of results
 898 2014-11-05 14:20:59 <sipa> yup
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 900 2014-11-05 14:22:27 <wumpus> yes just queue and batch and pipeline, I'm not sure how well it would work with OpenCL in practice though, most vector processors (say GPUs) work best when nearby threads follow approximately the same code path, if they don't then performance can seriously break down
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 902 2014-11-05 14:23:13 <sipa> wumpus: EC multiplication is actually pretty much fixed code paths
 903 2014-11-05 14:23:18 <wumpus> okay
 904 2014-11-05 14:23:36 <sipa> there are a few branches, but they should pretty much never occur
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 906 2014-11-05 14:24:51 <sipa> ed25519 is nicer in that regard, as it has no branches afaik
 907 2014-11-05 14:25:37 <wumpus> would work pretty well then, although non-locality of memory access could still be a problem (ie, nearby threads preferably access nearby memory)
 908 2014-11-05 14:26:06 <wumpus> so big random-access lookup tables are bad
 909 2014-11-05 14:26:36 <sipa> oh, i'm confused
 910 2014-11-05 14:26:49 <sipa> in verification there is a pretty strong branching effect
 911 2014-11-05 14:27:14 <sipa> when using wNAF for the multiplication
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 913 2014-11-05 14:27:34 <sipa> i think you can have a branch-free variant though with only slightly worse average performance
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 917 2014-11-05 14:35:47 <HM_> sipa, looking at the tree, libsecp256k1 is looking to be merged in to the daemon?
 918 2014-11-05 14:35:59 <sipa> HM_: yes, but just for signing
 919 2014-11-05 14:36:18 <sipa> (for now)
 920 2014-11-05 14:37:08 <CodeShark> signing is only for the wallet - which shouldn't be part of the daemon to begin with :p
 921 2014-11-05 14:37:13 <HM_> have you verified the entire blockchain with it yet?
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 923 2014-11-05 14:37:56 <sipa> HM_: of course
 924 2014-11-05 14:38:03 <sipa> but that's not really an interesting test
 925 2014-11-05 14:38:12 <sipa> you need to know whether it rejects all invalid things too :)
 926 2014-11-05 14:38:19 <sipa> and all possible valid things you don't know about
 927 2014-11-05 14:38:43 <CodeShark> is the openssl maleability issue fixed?
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 931 2014-11-05 14:39:07 <sipa> CodeShark: i know of no such thing
 932 2014-11-05 14:39:15 <sipa> BER is malleable, and ECDSA are malleable
 933 2014-11-05 14:39:21 <sipa> openssl just implements both
 934 2014-11-05 14:40:00 <CodeShark> ECDSA are malleable?
 935 2014-11-05 14:40:15 <CodeShark> I mean, sure, you could use a different random k
 936 2014-11-05 14:40:20 <CodeShark> but that's not what I mean
 937 2014-11-05 14:40:33 <sipa> ECDSA is inherently malleable, by changing the sign of s
 938 2014-11-05 14:40:54 <sipa> and BER is malleable because there are multiple encodings for the same value
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 941 2014-11-05 14:41:36 <sipa> oh, in addition OpenSSL adds indeed one of its own: it accepts negative numbers, and interprets them mod 2^256
 942 2014-11-05 14:41:53 <sipa> all of that is dealt with in BIP62, which i'm still working on
 943 2014-11-05 14:41:56 <CodeShark> it would be nice if the encoding was unique - but even if it isn't, can we say for sure we're aware of all the different possible encodings that the current implementation will accept?
 944 2014-11-05 14:42:03 <sipa> no
 945 2014-11-05 14:42:15 <sipa> there is no proof that ECDSA isn't malleable beyond what we already know
 946 2014-11-05 14:42:48 <CodeShark> but ECDSA malleability in and of itself doesn't pose too significant a problem, does it? it's the BER encoding that does
 947 2014-11-05 14:42:56 <sipa> all of them do
 948 2014-11-05 14:43:01 <sipa> see BIP62
 949 2014-11-05 14:43:15 <sipa> it describes all known ways to introduce malleability in scripts, and they're all equally bad
 950 2014-11-05 14:44:08 <sipa> i'm not sure why BER malleability would be worse than ECDSA?
 951 2014-11-05 14:44:36 <CodeShark> the most significant problem is disagreement in what constitutes a valid signature in different implementations
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 954 2014-11-05 14:45:16 <CodeShark> as long as all implementations agree that taking the negative s does not invalidate it, we're ok
 955 2014-11-05 14:45:20 <sipa> that's indeed a serious problem, but is independent from malleability
 956 2014-11-05 14:45:33 <CodeShark> let me qualify my last statement
 957 2014-11-05 14:45:40 <sipa> yes i know what you're saying
 958 2014-11-05 14:45:45 <CodeShark> it would be desirable for there to be no malleability at all
 959 2014-11-05 14:45:53 <sipa> but you're not talking about malleability, just about uncertainty of the actually implemented rules
 960 2014-11-05 14:45:54 <CodeShark> but it is absolutely essential that we don't get forking behavior
 961 2014-11-05 14:46:27 <sipa> and BIP62 actually does fix that too (and is my primary interest in getting it deployed)
 962 2014-11-05 14:47:00 <sipa> by requiring strict DER (even for transactions that don't choose to use the malleability protection offered by it)
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 967 2014-11-05 14:49:20 <CodeShark> eliminating malleability is a stronger condition…and should imply no forking behavior
 968 2014-11-05 14:50:05 <sipa> well you can't eliminate malleability entirely (the sender can as you say always choose to sign again with a different k)
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 970 2014-11-05 14:50:25 <sipa> and we can't elimate unknown implementation behaviour either
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 972 2014-11-05 14:51:11 <sipa> CodeShark: anyway, one of the reasons for wanting libsecp256k1, even if just for signing, is the ability to use deterministic k
 973 2014-11-05 14:51:29 <sipa> which OpenSSL still doesn't suppot
 974 2014-11-05 14:51:38 <CodeShark> you can't tell openssl to use a specific k?
 975 2014-11-05 14:52:09 <sipa> no
 976 2014-11-05 14:52:15 <sipa> it uses its own randomizer
 977 2014-11-05 14:52:26 <sipa> (which is decent, but it shouldn't be necessary)
 978 2014-11-05 14:52:44 <CodeShark> yeah, that is a good reason - the randomizer is a potential security hole
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 980 2014-11-05 14:52:53 <CodeShark> even if done right, it's easy to mess up
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 982 2014-11-05 14:53:23 <sipa> there's a patch to make it us $RAND + H(message + privkey) rather than just $RAND
 983 2014-11-05 14:53:29 <sipa> but it's not in any release afaik
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 988 2014-11-05 14:56:13 <CodeShark> https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/blob/rfc6979/deps/CoinCore/src/secp256k1.cpp#L344
 989 2014-11-05 14:56:29 <sipa> yeah, i have a branch implementing rfc6979 as well
 990 2014-11-05 14:56:54 <sipa> wait, what?
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 992 2014-11-05 14:58:14 <sipa> heh, i didn't know about that
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 995 2014-11-05 15:00:59 <CodeShark> it's still impossible for the verifier to check that rfc6979 was used
 996 2014-11-05 15:01:25 <sipa> yes, and it should be
 997 2014-11-05 15:01:26 <CodeShark> the only advantage is on the signer's side - in that entropy is not required for signing
 998 2014-11-05 15:01:37 <sipa> i'm well aware
 999 2014-11-05 15:01:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: my point was just that "using accounts isn't automatically misuse" as it seemed to be implied by a previous comment
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1001 2014-11-05 15:01:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: oh, i see
1002 2014-11-05 15:02:08 <CodeShark> sipa: point is it wouldn't get rid of the k malleability issue
1003 2014-11-05 15:02:24 <sipa> CodeShark: no, you need a deterministic signature scheme for that
1004 2014-11-05 15:02:32 <sipa> and EC doesn't have one
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1007 2014-11-05 15:08:34 <sipa> CodeShark: ooh, you've implemented rfc6979 with sha256
1008 2014-11-05 15:08:39 <sipa> can i haz some test vectors?
1009 2014-11-05 15:09:04 <CodeShark> sure
1010 2014-11-05 15:09:32 <sipa> i see you're following the spec strictly and hashing the message before passing it to the prng
1011 2014-11-05 15:09:40 <CodeShark> https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/tree/rfc6979/deps/CoinCore/tests/secp256k1
1012 2014-11-05 15:09:48 <sipa> even though the message is already known to be a hash, and should be for ecdsa
1013 2014-11-05 15:10:31 <CodeShark> just modify https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/blob/rfc6979/deps/CoinCore/tests/secp256k1/src/secp256k1_rfc6979_test.cpp to create whatever test vectors you want
1014 2014-11-05 15:10:44 <sipa> awesome
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1024 2014-11-05 15:27:18 <CodeShark> sipa: I don't think ECDSA_sign_ex is working as expected, now that I try it
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1026 2014-11-05 15:27:39 <CodeShark> CoinCrypto::secp256k1_rfc6979_k seems to work, though
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1029 2014-11-05 15:28:43 <CodeShark> or hmmm
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1037 2014-11-05 15:30:59 <CodeShark> I just did a build - haven't touched this code in a couple months…and there seems to be a bug I think I had fixed…but I need to find the branch where it's fixed
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1050 2014-11-05 15:32:37 <CodeShark> sipa: I take that back - this is the correct branch
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1056 2014-11-05 15:32:56 <CodeShark> CoinCrypto::secp256k1_rfc6979_k seems to work, ECDSA_sign_ex isn't working as expected
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1063 2014-11-05 15:35:59 <CodeShark> perhaps I misunderstood the kinv parameter
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1065 2014-11-05 15:37:07 <CodeShark> according to the OpenSSL documentation, "kinv - optional pointer to a pre-computed inverse k"
1066 2014-11-05 15:37:38 <CodeShark> I'm still getting different signatures for the same k
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1080 2014-11-05 15:47:57 <sipa> CodeShark: juddging by the source code you need to pass both kinv and R
1081 2014-11-05 15:48:36 <sipa> if either one is missing, a new random one is generated
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1087 2014-11-05 15:52:35 <sipa> R being the x coordinate of k*G
1088 2014-11-05 15:52:58 <CodeShark> aha - let me try passing that as well
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1102 2014-11-05 16:02:16 <CodeShark> hmm, how do we get the rp?
1103 2014-11-05 16:03:33 <sipa> you EC_POINT_mul i guess
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1106 2014-11-05 16:04:27 <sipa> see crypto/ecdsa/ecs_ossl.c, ecdsa_sign_setup
1107 2014-11-05 16:05:39 <CodeShark> I have secp256k1_point::generator_mul()
1108 2014-11-05 16:05:49 <sipa> good enough
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1112 2014-11-05 16:09:03 <CodeShark> EC_POINT_get_affine_coordinates_GFp, I guess?
1113 2014-11-05 16:09:33 <sipa> that'll do
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1131 2014-11-05 16:26:27 <CodeShark> alright - I did that - now I'm always getting the sam signature…but the validation is failing…so I suppose I'm not computing rp correctly
1132 2014-11-05 16:26:32 <CodeShark> *same signature
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1135 2014-11-05 16:27:50 <stonecoldpat> make sure the hash that is being signed is the same for both signature and verification (i've had a problem in the past where they both different due to my own error)
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1137 2014-11-05 16:28:25 <CodeShark> that's surely not the issue
1138 2014-11-05 16:28:28 <CodeShark> nothing else in the code changed
1139 2014-11-05 16:28:48 <CodeShark> when I let OpenSSL choose a random k for me, the signatures are valid
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1141 2014-11-05 16:29:23 <CodeShark> the only difference is the rp parameter to ECDSA_sign_ex
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1143 2014-11-05 16:30:44 <stonecoldpat> ah sorry, when you say rp, you mean kG = (x,y) where r = x? then r should be part of the signature already (r,s)
1144 2014-11-05 16:31:50 <stonecoldpat> so it may be worth checking - the deterministic 'r' you are putting into the function, is the same 'r' popping out in the signature
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1152 2014-11-05 16:38:46 <stonecoldpat> also make sure your using BN_mod_inverse to get kinv, and not just negating k. (sorry if comments are not useful)
1153 2014-11-05 16:39:42 <CodeShark> I did check that the r I'm getting is the same as in the signature
1154 2014-11-05 16:39:49 <CodeShark> and yes, I'm using BN_mod_inverse
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1163 2014-11-05 16:47:44 <CodeShark> http://pastebin.com/CkuHpTfV
1164 2014-11-05 16:47:48 <CodeShark> there's my output
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1174 2014-11-05 16:54:43 <stonecoldpat> have you had a look @ https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/ecdsa/ecs_ossl.c ? the ECDSA_SIGN_SETUP method? you basically just need to copy what they do once you have 'k'
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1178 2014-11-05 16:55:30 <stonecoldpat> (if 'k' is the problem and not some parameter point being funny)
1179 2014-11-05 16:56:08 <stonecoldpat> and it may be useful using EC_GROUP_get_order(group, order, ctx) to get the 'q' value (if q is the order) instead of hard-coding it, just to make sure its right
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1186 2014-11-05 17:03:44 <CodeShark> oh…the group order…not the field mod
1187 2014-11-05 17:04:31 <CodeShark> ?
1188 2014-11-05 17:04:55 <CodeShark> here's what I'm doing: https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/blob/rfc6979/deps/CoinCore/src/secp256k1.cpp#L350
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1194 2014-11-05 17:07:25 <CodeShark> I tried it with the group order instead and am still getting the same issue
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1196 2014-11-05 17:08:34 <CodeShark> ok, just pushed the change
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1199 2014-11-05 17:12:18 <stonecoldpat> could try doing secp256k1_verify straight after ECDSA_sign_ex to see if it works before you leave that function
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1203 2014-11-05 17:12:51 <stonecoldpat> so sign then immediately verify (thats what I would do if I was debugging it) - havent got my laptop with me to debug it properly
1204 2014-11-05 17:12:56 <CodeShark> what difference would that make? if I take this code and just replace rp with NULL in ECDSA_sign_ex, I get a valid signature
1205 2014-11-05 17:14:25 <CodeShark> so this means the problem can only be with kinv, rp, or ECDSA_sign_ex
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1212 2014-11-05 17:18:51 <stonecoldpat> well you should have all the valid values in the function for the thing to verify. Although - your using point.generator_mul(k) which does EC_POINT_mul(group, point, bn, point, BN_value_one(), ctx) to generate kG = (x,y). But Open_SSL uses EC_POINT_mul(group, tmp_point, k, NULL, NULL, ctx) - it shouldnt make a great difference, but could try inserting nulls in that operation? Keep it
1213 2014-11-05 17:18:51 <stonecoldpat> consistent to what openssl are doing
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1216 2014-11-05 17:20:43 <CodeShark> I'm using generator_mul here: https://github.com/ciphrex/CoinVault/blob/master/deps/CoinCore/src/hdkeys.cpp#L265
1217 2014-11-05 17:20:50 <CodeShark> and this code has been extensively tested
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1219 2014-11-05 17:21:45 <CodeShark> the hdkeys code, that is
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1222 2014-11-05 17:23:01 <CodeShark> you'd think if there was something wrong with my implementation of generator_mul it would have triggered something by now
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1225 2014-11-05 17:24:20 <stonecoldpat> that is true, if you have the group available though, it's a one-line change to see if that is the problem as it does sound like its the computation of 'r' that is going wrong
1226 2014-11-05 17:24:41 <helo> would be quite an exercise to design something that wasn't perfect, but passes every test you can throw at it
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1229 2014-11-05 17:25:22 <CodeShark> helo: you could deliberately fudge the result for one particular point :)
1230 2014-11-05 17:25:36 <helo> well sure... i mean without it being obvious :)
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1237 2014-11-05 17:29:01 <CodeShark> oh, hmm :)
1238 2014-11-05 17:29:14 <CodeShark> stonecoldpat: that change worked...strange
1239 2014-11-05 17:30:04 <stonecoldpat> awesome!
1240 2014-11-05 17:30:38 <CodeShark> I'm a little scared to make that change in my releases because it might break something :p
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1242 2014-11-05 17:30:58 <CodeShark> I've been using the generator_mul implementation you see and haven't had any issues with hdkeys yet
1243 2014-11-05 17:31:44 <CodeShark> oh...
1244 2014-11-05 17:31:55 <CodeShark> I think my implementation of generator_mul fails for the point at infinity
1245 2014-11-05 17:31:59 <CodeShark> but perhaps works for all other points
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1250 2014-11-05 17:33:34 <CodeShark> thanks, stonecoldpat - I'll run tests on this new change to see if anything breaks
1251 2014-11-05 17:33:46 <stonecoldpat> np :)
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1259 2014-11-05 17:43:35 <CodeShark> stonecoldpat: I think I might need to do EC_POINT_mul(group, point, bn, (is_at_infinity() ? NULL : point), BN_value_one(), ctx);
1260 2014-11-05 17:44:25 <CodeShark> then the behavior for hdkeys should remain unchanged - and I just tested this for rfc6979 and it produced a valid signature
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1306 2014-11-05 18:53:56 <rubensayshi> if given a partially signed input of a N of M p2sh output, is it possible to know if it's already been signed without knowing the public keys?
1307 2014-11-05 18:56:32 <rubensayshi> my case is a 2of3 where I can just sign and see if it's valid after signing, but I'm curious when it's more than 2of3 or if you wouldn't know any keys and see the transaction?
1308 2014-11-05 18:58:04 <gmaxwell> the signature contains the redeemscript if it has been signed at all.
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1311 2014-11-05 19:01:24 <rubensayshi> okay, thanks
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1378 2014-11-05 20:52:25 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: uh, wtf? How the hell did you get a Rubik's Cube into an unsolvable state?
1379 2014-11-05 20:52:40 <michagogo> Did you not start from a solved one?
1380 2014-11-05 20:52:52 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: I didn't, no. not sure where it came from.
1381 2014-11-05 20:52:57 <Luke-Jr> I guess someone moved stickers?
1382 2014-11-05 20:53:02 <michagogo> Was it a trolly fake cube? One that someone had taken apart or relabelled?
1383 2014-11-05 20:53:14 <Luke-Jr> all the colours were labels
1384 2014-11-05 20:53:20 <michagogo> I wonder if that's a thing
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1501 2014-11-05 23:22:55 <cfields> sipa: sorry for delay re secp256k1 stuff, had a few things i had to do during the day this week. catching up now.
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1507 2014-11-05 23:29:54 <cfields> CodeShark: re boost removal, here is a good example of why: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5213
1508 2014-11-05 23:30:34 <cfields> boost is far more complex than most libs, so how it's built can matter to lib users
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1512 2014-11-05 23:31:53 <cfields> CodeShark: also, removing boost as a dep from a compilation unit is a good start towards removing bitcoind app state. no guarantees ofc, but since we rely on it for threading/program options/etc, the two tend to line up for the most part
1513 2014-11-05 23:33:03 <sipa> what is in the way of c++11 now, really?
1514 2014-11-05 23:33:16 <sipa> at least for threading that would simplify things a lot...
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1516 2014-11-05 23:34:14 <cfields> sipa: i think not much anymore. iirc wumpus wanted to evaluate it for post-0.10
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1518 2014-11-05 23:34:22 <sipa> cool
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1520 2014-11-05 23:34:49 <cfields> as before, i'm all for it, as long as we go all-in rather than a subset
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1525 2014-11-05 23:43:02 <cfields> sipa: is the libsecp256k1 pr intended for 0.10 ?
1526 2014-11-05 23:43:09 <sipa> yes
1527 2014-11-05 23:43:32 <cfields> mm, ok
1528 2014-11-05 23:46:03 <cfields> sipa: what field/bignum implementations do you intend to use for supported releases?
1529 2014-11-05 23:46:40 <sipa> there's only one bignum implementation left, and 32bit/64bit_asm (unless the asm is hard to get working everywhere?)
1530 2014-11-05 23:47:08 <cfields> oh, did you merge in your new scalar stuff?
1531 2014-11-05 23:47:16 <sipa> yes
1532 2014-11-05 23:47:24 <cfields> woohoo!
1533 2014-11-05 23:47:29 <cfields> great work!
1534 2014-11-05 23:47:48 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1535 2014-11-05 23:48:02 <sipa> heh, thanks
1536 2014-11-05 23:48:39 <cfields> i was dreading getting that PR fixed up in time for 0.10, but that removes most of the big hurdles. looking now.
1537 2014-11-05 23:48:40 <sipa> it's a bit rushed, but using it for just signing should be safe (especially if it can be combined with verifying the results through the existing openssl-based code)
1538 2014-11-05 23:48:55 <sipa> how does that simplify things for you?
1539 2014-11-05 23:49:43 <cfields> because it's kinda nasty to pass libsecp256k1's link requirements back to bitcoind when it's built static
1540 2014-11-05 23:50:03 <sipa> eh?
1541 2014-11-05 23:50:18 <cfields> openssl would've been easy enough. but if you wanted to go with gmp, it'd take some magic for bitcoind to know that it needed to link against -lgmp
1542 2014-11-05 23:50:35 <sipa> it needs gmp
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1544 2014-11-05 23:50:56 <cfields> heh, sign
1545 2014-11-05 23:51:00 <cfields> magic it is, then :)
1546 2014-11-05 23:51:21 <sipa> i would expect libtool or whatever to figure those things out?
1547 2014-11-05 23:51:29 <sipa> the .la file listing that it needs gmp
1548 2014-11-05 23:51:58 <cfields> it does for bitcoind, yes
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1550 2014-11-05 23:52:16 <cfields> but libtool doesn't want to link a 3rd party static lib into a shared lib (libbitcoinsensus)
1551 2014-11-05 23:52:31 <cfields> so, i suppose i mis-spoke above when i said the magic was required for bitcoind
1552 2014-11-05 23:52:36 <sipa> libbitcoinconsensus doesn't need libsecp
1553 2014-11-05 23:52:41 <sipa> as it doesn't do signing
1554 2014-11-05 23:52:56 <cfields> right, so the problem is put off until we do signing stuff
1555 2014-11-05 23:53:10 <sipa> libbitcoinconsensus shouldn't ever do signing, imho
1556 2014-11-05 23:53:28 <sipa> but problems may appear when we start using libsecp for verification
1557 2014-11-05 23:54:01 <sipa> or when we want to create a general-purpose script lib
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1559 2014-11-05 23:55:07 <cfields> yep, ok you're right then. my build issues were present when i was testing it for verification. so still maybe easy for 0.10
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