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  63 2014-11-14 01:11:34 <gmaxwell> coryfields: hah, sorry for the allcaps no bomb. I saw those huge diffs and thought you totally misunderstood it and did a bunch of work to replace what was there with something broken. Should have known better. :)
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  73 2014-11-14 01:18:25 <webdeli> https://en.bitcoin.it is offline for me.
  74 2014-11-14 01:18:31 <webdeli> Anyone else see same
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  91 2014-11-14 01:32:21 <SomeoneWeird> webdeli: sec
  92 2014-11-14 01:32:58 <SomeoneWeird> hrm
  93 2014-11-14 01:33:30 <webdeli> hrm indeed
  94 2014-11-14 01:33:31 <cfields> gmaxwell: heh np. the diff is actually crazy-simple, it's just the whitespace shift that mangles it.
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  98 2014-11-14 01:35:14 <SomeoneWeird> webdeli: looks like ddos
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 101 2014-11-14 01:35:39 <cfields> gmaxwell: i try to make it my rule-of-thumb that anything non-standard or often-broken gets tested explicitly in configure, because that's what configure is for. i go overboard at times, but i much prefer to err on the side of careful
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 105 2014-11-14 01:37:58 <gmaxwell> Fortunately the things at play here are used heavily by glibc.
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 108 2014-11-14 01:39:14 <cfields> gmaxwell: also, i didn't realize that restrict was standardized in c99. So i'll grant you that you were 100% correct in calling me out on that+inline for internal use, since we're c99 already.
 109 2014-11-14 01:40:30 <gmaxwell> Yea, restrict and inline are C99, but they're part of C99 that MSVC didn't implement until the very most recent version.
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 116 2014-11-14 01:51:13 <gmaxwell> cfields: perhaps submit a pr on the warnings? I thought it would be a bigger performance impact than it was, seems reasonsble. Uh, dunno about shipping with a -Weverything though. perhaps leave that out for now?
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 253 2014-11-14 05:00:52 <jgarzik> wumpus, There are sufficiently few bitcoin/bitcoin.git commits going upstream that sending notices to #bitcoin-dev seems most appropriate (RE #bitcoin-commits)
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 352 2014-11-14 08:19:29 <sipa> jgarzik: do we want that old debate again? years ago we had that, and people complained that #bitcoin-dev should not be bitcoin core only
 353 2014-11-14 08:27:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in most IRC clients you can join two channels with a single window, so you can virtually have the messages show up here if you want them to.
 354 2014-11-14 08:28:55 <sipa> does irssi support that? :o
 355 2014-11-14 08:29:10 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 356 2014-11-14 08:29:18 <sipa> wow
 357 2014-11-14 08:30:18 <gmaxwell>  /wjoin #bitcoin-otherchannel
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 359 2014-11-14 08:30:38 <gmaxwell> and then you press ctrl-x to toggle which one you're talking in.
 360 2014-11-14 08:31:00 <gmaxwell> (or /msg the channel)
 361 2014-11-14 08:31:38 <gmaxwell> if you're already in the other channel you need to close it first or do some /window move thing.
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 367 2014-11-14 08:36:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: cool, will try
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 461 2014-11-14 11:08:47 <wumpus> jgarzik: fair enough, but I don't feel like changing that now just after having announced a special channel for commits
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 463 2014-11-14 11:09:29 <wumpus> and maybe it would make sense to make secp256k1 and such report there too @sipa
 464 2014-11-14 11:09:55 <wumpus> and bips
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 495 2014-11-14 12:07:50 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: we used to have commits in here a long time ago, but some felt it better to keep it in a separate channel
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 497 2014-11-14 12:08:29 <Luke-Jr> +1 to secp256k1 & bips announcing commits also
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 499 2014-11-14 12:12:51 <wumpus> indeed, it makes sense to keep bot output in seperate channels, makes it easier to ignore for people not interested in it
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 659 2014-11-14 15:42:09 <earlz> isn't there a version of bitcoind out there that has an addressindex implementation?
 660 2014-11-14 15:42:27 <earlz> Allows you to check balance of an address from the reference wallet
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 662 2014-11-14 15:47:25 <earlz> looks like this I think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5048
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 667 2014-11-14 15:48:33 <earlz> and this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2802
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 679 2014-11-14 16:01:54 <wumpus> 5048 is enough to compute a balance
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 681 2014-11-14 16:02:15 <wumpus> it just indexes the utxo set
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 685 2014-11-14 16:02:40 <wumpus> you only need to index the full blockchain if you want to extract transactino histories
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 687 2014-11-14 16:04:08 <earlz> yea, I think the indexing on only utxo is much more useful
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 691 2014-11-14 16:07:06 <hearn> if all nodes had utxo indexes, the protocol could be a lot simpler for app developers. the current p2p protocol is pretty painful, from an API design perspective.
 692 2014-11-14 16:07:32 <hearn> you could just upload a set of utxo queries (optionally noisified/garbled) and subscribe to a stream of utxo changes + validation data.
 693 2014-11-14 16:07:44 <wumpus> electrum supports that AFAIK
 694 2014-11-14 16:07:54 <hearn> right, that's how electrum works
 695 2014-11-14 16:08:23 <hearn> (sort of)
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 698 2014-11-14 16:11:32 <gfawkes> indices would cost to store at the node level, and people are already complaining about the disk usage.. can't see adding extra disk space usage making them happier
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 700 2014-11-14 16:12:06 <hearn> yeah
 701 2014-11-14 16:12:10 <sipa> hearn: how is that any better than having a few centralized servers that do that indexing?
 702 2014-11-14 16:12:10 <hearn> that's the tradeoff
 703 2014-11-14 16:12:24 <sipa> there is no way to prove that the data is correct anyway
 704 2014-11-14 16:12:44 <sipa> if you're going to to trust a peer for information, better stick to a devil you know
 705 2014-11-14 16:12:51 <earlz> If you don't want more disk usage, don't use the index? heh
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 707 2014-11-14 16:13:08 <sipa> at least when talking about the spentness information
 708 2014-11-14 16:13:14 <hearn> sipa: it's equivalent to spv security: utxo entries contain the height at which they were defined, so a client can still check the branches to the headers.
 709 2014-11-14 16:13:24 <sipa> txout data is verifiable
 710 2014-11-14 16:13:28 <sipa> spentness isn't
 711 2014-11-14 16:13:35 <hearn> sipa: spv clients can already get corrupted spentness data if a remote node doesn't report transactions
 712 2014-11-14 16:13:39 <hearn> in practice it works well enough
 713 2014-11-14 16:14:55 <sipa> yes, but one honest peer is enough to give you correct data
 714 2014-11-14 16:14:55 <sipa> this is not true for general spentness
 715 2014-11-14 16:14:55 <hearn> the idea is, it'd speed up wallet restore, and perhaps more importantly unify some programming models to make things simpler. writing advanced block chain based apps is quite painful at the moment (speaking from experience)
 716 2014-11-14 16:14:55 <sipa> i don't disagree
 717 2014-11-14 16:14:55 <sipa> i just disagree that this should be a function of p2p nodes
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 719 2014-11-14 16:15:03 <earlz> eh, a lot of people still don't trust anything other than the reference wallet
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 721 2014-11-14 16:16:16 <hearn> well, security wise it's not much different to current security with bloom filtering. just a different way to get the same data, and more efficient than rescanning the whole chain from the wallet birthday when restoring from seed. however i'm unsure if that will ultimately matter, as we need a kind of (separate) p2p backup network anyway to preserve metadata
 722 2014-11-14 16:16:32 <hearn> and it does come with some costs
 723 2014-11-14 16:16:55 <sipa> metadata preservation doesn't need to be decentralized
 724 2014-11-14 16:17:00 <hearn> what i'm really interested in is a simpler programming model, really. the current protocol has good efficiency for the remote nodes, but writing apps that use it is horrendously difficult, even with good tools.
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 726 2014-11-14 16:17:34 <gfawkes> its not any worse than say paypal's soap model ;)
 727 2014-11-14 16:17:46 <hearn> no indeed, the goal of a p2p backup network there would just be convenience. your wallet can auto discover storage nodes, in theory. perhaps so many people have accounts with google/dropbox/etc these days, that it's acceptable to just rely on them.
 728 2014-11-14 16:17:59 <hearn> gfawkes: i haven't used it, but i remember SOAP .... shudder :)
 729 2014-11-14 16:19:00 <earlz> It'd be nice to have a secondary p2p protocol for some optional stuff, like sending around incomplete multisig transactions needing a signature
 730 2014-11-14 16:19:14 <earlz> Not really possible to keep it from gettign DDpS
 731 2014-11-14 16:19:20 <earlz> DDoS'd
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 733 2014-11-14 16:19:51 <hearn> i think the way to go there is to have ad-hoc p2p networks of application specific servers, and to make the p2p part dead easy. but still assume they're being run by somewhat competent admins.
 734 2014-11-14 16:20:13 <hearn> but it's still unclear how to write decentralised apps as easily as centralised apps, or even what decentralised means
 735 2014-11-14 16:20:41 <wumpus> instead of P2P, I think a HTTP-based protocol would be better for such queries
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 737 2014-11-14 16:20:56 <wumpus> simple REST querying public state
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 739 2014-11-14 16:21:50 <earlz> So, here's my problem. Lets say you want to allow some service to spend funds for you. They implement it with mutlisig.
 740 2014-11-14 16:22:04 <wumpus> any API based on satoshi's P2P protocol is never developer friendly
 741 2014-11-14 16:22:27 <hearn> you can have p2p + http :)
 742 2014-11-14 16:22:32 <earlz> The service finds it needs to send funds out of your wallet. Only way they can do it is to have /you/ polling their server with your local wallet, waiting for something to sign, or for /you/ to setup a HTTP server they can connect to
 743 2014-11-14 16:22:44 <hearn> i guess to me, p2p really just means a way for new nodes to automatically advertise themselves, and new clients to automatically discover nodes
 744 2014-11-14 16:22:50 <earlz> yes
 745 2014-11-14 16:23:43 <earlz> I think the hardest part about multisig right now is getting the incomplete transaction to all parties, because it must be done out-of-band and thus has no standard, and basically requires polling on at least one part
 746 2014-11-14 16:23:57 <hearn> s/multisig/any bitcoin app/
 747 2014-11-14 16:24:08 <earlz> Well, multisig especially
 748 2014-11-14 16:24:14 <hearn> lighthouse has a custom server for collecting the partial transactions, for example
 749 2014-11-14 16:24:37 <earlz> because you need to tkae this tx that can't be broadcast on the network, and somehow get it in front of some nodes to sign it and complete the transaction
 750 2014-11-14 16:24:43 <hearn> writing a custom server with HTTP upload is not hard, but managing all the state and synchronising views between different servers and a constantly shifting / noisy consensus from the bitcoin p2p network is tough
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 752 2014-11-14 16:26:04 <wumpus> wouldn't be too difficult to add a way to query utxos to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2844
 753 2014-11-14 16:27:46 <earlz> probably not
 754 2014-11-14 16:28:04 <earlz> looks like it already is
 755 2014-11-14 16:28:06 <earlz> Add a getutxos command to the p2p protocol #4351
 756 2014-11-14 16:28:56 <sipa> earlz: we're not talking about the p2p protocol
 757 2014-11-14 16:28:58 <wumpus> and when there is a utxo-by-address index, that query could be added too
 758 2014-11-14 16:29:11 <earlz> ah, I see
 759 2014-11-14 16:29:17 <sipa> meh, i still disagree that should be a function of network nodes
 760 2014-11-14 16:29:27 <sipa> maybe an optional plugin for those that need it
 761 2014-11-14 16:29:32 <wumpus> I agree sipa
 762 2014-11-14 16:29:59 <sipa> i don't mind the codebase having support for it; but i don't think it should a function of the typical node binary/process
 763 2014-11-14 16:30:03 <wumpus> but it may make sense to standardize a http-based protocol for it anyway
 764 2014-11-14 16:30:08 <sipa> right
 765 2014-11-14 16:30:23 <hearn> http vs p2p is pretty irrelevant, at least from my pov. sending/receiving p2p requests isn't the hard part.
 766 2014-11-14 16:30:32 <wumpus> even if it will not be integrated into bitcoin core (which, indeed, shouldn't grow all kind of application specific functionality not required to maintain consensus)
 767 2014-11-14 16:30:32 <hearn> the difficulties start at the higher levels
 768 2014-11-14 16:31:03 <wumpus> sending p2p requests is a lot harder from most languages as sending a simple http request
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 770 2014-11-14 16:31:54 <wumpus> if we want an API that's easier in general, better to standardize one that is actually easier and doesn't rely on weird non-standard protocols
 771 2014-11-14 16:31:55 <hearn> yes but if you aren't using the p2p protocol already, what benefit is the additional data in isolation?
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 773 2014-11-14 16:32:28 <hearn> i mean, what sort of app wants a utxo query from the p2p network, but not anything else provided via p2p
 774 2014-11-14 16:32:54 <wumpus> yes, *if*
 775 2014-11-14 16:33:21 <wumpus> well right now you can query blocks and transactions already
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 777 2014-11-14 16:34:01 <hearn> i'm honestly not quite sure how best to make decentralised bitcoin apps easier to write, but i feel the way messages are wrapped isn't that big a deal. the harder part is how you synthesise and represent the different views from your peers at a higher level, in such a way that it makes sense, especially if some of those peers are broken or (worse) malicious
 778 2014-11-14 16:34:06 <wumpus> I agree that an interface to just query utxos would be kind of pointless
 779 2014-11-14 16:34:10 <hearn> e.g. fetching blocks via http is fine, but then you want to hear about new ones typically
 780 2014-11-14 16:34:15 <hearn> and http isn't designed for that, so much
 781 2014-11-14 16:34:49 <wumpus> don't we do something similar for getblocktemplate?
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 783 2014-11-14 16:35:56 <hearn> doing server push with http means http/2 pretty much, and then you're back to not being well supported (for now). plus the actual HTTP headers end up just being ignored.
 784 2014-11-14 16:35:59 <wumpus> clients sends the request, and it returns only after data is available (ie ,there is a new block)
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 787 2014-11-14 16:36:26 <hearn> right, long polling.
 788 2014-11-14 16:36:40 <hearn> though then you add a lot of overhead for each request
 789 2014-11-14 16:37:33 <hearn> still, i need to think about it more. perhaps when you take into account the desire to link everything back to hash power consensus, you can't really do simpler than the current protocol except minor things like framing.
 790 2014-11-14 16:38:05 <hearn> i feel the biggest complexities in lighthouse arise from things like fees and the IsStandard rules.
 791 2014-11-14 16:38:09 <wumpus> anyhow - as I've said before, I don't think it is a good idea extend the bitcoin p2p protocol with all kinds of application speicif functionality
 792 2014-11-14 16:38:16 <hearn> stuff that's not so easy to simplify
 793 2014-11-14 16:38:17 <wumpus> so that's why a new standard would make sense
 794 2014-11-14 16:40:00 <wumpus> re-implementing the current P2P functionality over http would be a completely different beast
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 816 2014-11-14 16:54:04 <Luke-Jr> [16:28:28] <hearn> though then you add a lot of overhead for each request <-- long polling doesn't add that much overhead
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 819 2014-11-14 16:55:06 <Luke-Jr> (unless you just mean HTTP headers, but that's only once per long-poll)
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 839 2014-11-14 17:09:29 <deego> Hey. For things like CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY (from petertodd), how does the network keep track of relative time? Does it simply use # blocks as a proxy for time? (If it used plain unixtime, different clients could reject/confirm a transaction differently, so surely not that, right?)
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 843 2014-11-14 17:09:53 <btcdrak> deego: it's by blocktime
 844 2014-11-14 17:09:59 <btcdrak> deego: i mean block number
 845 2014-11-14 17:10:28 <deego> btcdrak: ah. thanks!
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 847 2014-11-14 17:11:15 <sipa> deego: and even if it used time, it would not be a problem
 848 2014-11-14 17:11:28 <sipa> deego: because it checks the locktime field of the spending transaction, not the actual time
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 850 2014-11-14 17:11:58 <sipa> and the locktime semantics themselves use the block timestamp, not real time
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 853 2014-11-14 17:12:50 <deego> sipa: And, block timestamp == based on # blocks?
 854 2014-11-14 17:12:59 <sipa> no
 855 2014-11-14 17:13:15 <sipa> it's a timestamp that is put by miners in blocks
 856 2014-11-14 17:13:27 <sipa> and there are consensus rules that constrain the used values
 857 2014-11-14 17:13:34 <hearn> block timestamp is linked to real time with some fuzzyness by nodes rejecting blocks too far in the future
 858 2014-11-14 17:13:59 <deego> sipa: Ah. Nice. very neat. Thanks!
 859 2014-11-14 17:14:08 <deego> hearn: thanks
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 889 2014-11-14 17:41:45 <petertodd> btcdrak: CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY supports both block number, and blocktime
 890 2014-11-14 17:42:52 <petertodd> though it's possible we may have to get rid of nLockTime-by-time in the future as it can lead to really ugly incentives - blocktimes are one of the more dubious parts of bitcoin's consensus/incentive compatibility
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 904 2014-11-14 17:50:36 <Luke-Jr> anyone to review block proposals in time for 0.10? :/
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 908 2014-11-14 17:52:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i like the changes
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1018 2014-11-14 19:57:18 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, if you find GDB segfaulting when you go to debug something using OpenCL, workaround is to delete /usr/lib/debug/usr/lib/OpenCL/vendors/mesa/libOpenCL.so.1.0.0.debug
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