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  30 2014-11-23 00:53:23 <trommy> evning all
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  44 2014-11-23 01:19:30 <ahmed_> is there any node.js devs here for hire? (only a few lines of code i need doing most likely) bitcoin related.
  45 2014-11-23 01:20:33 <sipa> not here, please
  46 2014-11-23 01:20:49 <ahmed_> no worries is there another chan i can ask?
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  58 2014-11-23 01:32:40 <tommygunner> -otc
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  98 2014-11-23 02:34:27 <Haitoman> Trying to understand BC blocks. When a valid hash is found and the block is submitted to the network, do all miners dump the block they are working on?
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 101 2014-11-23 02:41:53 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: yep
 102 2014-11-23 02:42:59 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: keep in mind they "start over" trillions of times every second
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 107 2014-11-23 02:52:56 <Haitoman> Luke-Jr: Thanks...yes..I get that but does that mean a transaction can appear in several blocks over the space of 30mins?
 108 2014-11-23 02:53:11 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: only one of them
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 110 2014-11-23 02:54:19 <phantomcircuit> Haitoman, have you read the white paper?
 111 2014-11-23 02:54:36 <phantomcircuit> also https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide
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 131 2014-11-23 03:17:21 <Haitoman> phantomcircuit: I think I have read everything. Just a few gaps in my understanding. Like is the block header's timestamp updated before each hash attempt? And if a miner accepts a txn into their block do they dump that block when another miner is successful?
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 134 2014-11-23 03:18:10 <phantomcircuit> Haitoman, when you say dump you mean discard, correct?
 135 2014-11-23 03:19:23 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: those are just implementation details, up to each person running a node
 136 2014-11-23 03:19:33 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: generally the timestamp is only updated once a second though
 137 2014-11-23 03:20:01 dreamspark has quit ()
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 139 2014-11-23 03:23:16 <Luke-Jr> (my apologies if these things seem obvious - but I feel like they need to be explicit because they're not always assumed in practice)
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 143 2014-11-23 03:30:34 <Haitoman> phantomcircuit: Okay I'm intrigued when you say 'discard'. I'm struggling with how a transaction can only ever exist in one block if a node has the choice of 'discarding' their block.
 144 2014-11-23 03:32:47 <phantomcircuit> Haitoman, everybody is free to do whatever they want; BUT you're only using bitcoin if you follow the same consensus rules as everybody else
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 147 2014-11-23 03:36:41 <jaromil> Haitoman: maybe you like reading http://people.xiph.org/~greg/decentralized-time.txt
 148 2014-11-23 03:39:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: wrt 5316 what would you warn for?  "using this may screw up your node" ?  well perhaps we should hide the option in the rpc help.
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 152 2014-11-23 03:40:48 <gmaxwell> Haitoman: "dump the block they are working on" sounds like you may be suffering from a misunderstanding related to progress. There is no cumulative "work" in mining, billions of times a second you attempt a solution, every attempt is completely independant and unrelated to the others. If there is a new block on the network, you simply make your next attempt be an attempt at the block after that one.
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 154 2014-11-23 03:41:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah that
 155 2014-11-23 03:42:04 <gmaxwell> Haitoman: a single blockchain can only have a transaction in it once, by the validity rules of the system enforced by every participant... but since there is no such thing as synchronicity in a distributed network, it's quite possible for the chain to have competing tips, though eventually only one will survive and be part of the eventual longest chain.
 156 2014-11-23 03:42:29 MiningBuddy has joined
 157 2014-11-23 03:42:37 * Luke-Jr said that already  :P
 158 2014-11-23 03:43:12 <gmaxwell> (also, please take the bitcoin basics questions to #bitcoin)
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 170 2014-11-23 03:58:32 <Haitoman> Luke-Jr: phantomcircuit: I appreciate the explanation. I get all this. It is just the 'how' a node does not include the same transaction in another block that I am struggling with.  Does a node explicitly check the previous block(s) when it accepts a txn for the block it is working on to ensure that it hasn't already been included in the blockchain. Where is this check done?
 171 2014-11-23 03:59:11 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: the node has a database of valid-and-existing UTXOs; if a transaction tries to spend UTXOs that don't exist, it is rejected
 172 2014-11-23 03:59:25 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: when the node processes a block that has a transaction spending a UTXO, it is deleted from the database
 173 2014-11-23 03:59:34 <Luke-Jr> thus it wouldn't exist for future blocks/transactions to use
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 175 2014-11-23 04:00:38 <phantomcircuit> Haitoman, #bitcoin for future discussion
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 178 2014-11-23 04:08:30 <Haitoman> Luke-Jr:  Ahhh..I see. So when a block is found and broadcast to the network each node updates its UTXO database. Thanks. Next question coming soon :)
 179 2014-11-23 04:08:48 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: in #bitcoin I hope
 180 2014-11-23 04:12:15 <Haitoman> Luke-Jr: I tried but I got a 'by invitation only' response
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 182 2014-11-23 04:12:31 <Luke-Jr> Haitoman: sounds like a bug in your IRC client..
 183 2014-11-23 04:12:39 <Luke-Jr> oh, maybe you need to register with NickServ
 184 2014-11-23 04:16:27 <gmaxwell> wrt
 185 2014-11-23 04:16:30 <gmaxwell> er wtf
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 187 2014-11-23 04:20:33 <Luke-Jr> yeah, dunno, +r seems to be nickserv-required, but it isn't set on #bitcoin
 188 2014-11-23 04:20:48 <Luke-Jr> "join throttling" (+j) is - maybe related
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 248 2014-11-23 07:19:12 <gmaxwell> coryfields: something is wrong with the dependencies in master. ... upgraded a host from master a few weeks ago after a make clean, then ./autogen.sh ; ./configure ;  and make is failing with No rule to make target `libsecp256k1.la'.  Stop.
 249 2014-11-23 07:20:11 <gmaxwell> oh foof. nevermind, false alarm. forgot this host had to be built with disable wallet, the configure was failing.
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 278 2014-11-23 08:36:05 <btcdrak> gmaxwell I had that error but it was because of a new dependency lib-gmp was missing
 279 2014-11-23 08:36:43 <gmaxwell> It was just that I hadn't actually run configure... just because I needed a --disable-wallet on that host.
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 281 2014-11-23 08:37:32 <btcdrak> hehe :)
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 289 2014-11-23 08:59:38 <null> when trying to find the strongest chain, can i just sum(~targets) of each chain, or is it more complicated than that?
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 294 2014-11-23 09:02:48 <gmaxwell> assuming ~ is a reciprocal, thats all there is to it.
 295 2014-11-23 09:03:17 <null> i was thinking of ~ as inverting, but reciprocal is fine, too
 296 2014-11-23 09:03:19 <null> gmaxwell: thanks
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 299 2014-11-23 09:10:01 <null> bitwise inverting, that is; otherwise my sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense :)
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 304 2014-11-23 09:36:14 <null> hum... can i just treat the compat target as a float? i can just find some articles on stackexchange on how to convert between the formats
 305 2014-11-23 09:36:55 <sipa> 'compat' ?
 306 2014-11-23 09:37:08 <Luke-Jr> null: it is a float.. of custom format. I'm not sure what you're asking.
 307 2014-11-23 09:37:32 <sipa> to find the strongest chain you must compute sum(2^256/target(x) for every x in chain)
 308 2014-11-23 09:37:47 <sipa> it's not bitwise inverting
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 311 2014-11-23 10:01:37 <null> sipa: i meant compact. i just read about how to convert between target and target in compact format. to me, the conversion is not intuitive, at least not without thinking about it :)
 312 2014-11-23 10:02:32 <null> padding with zero seems okay, it's just padding the mantissa. but the prepending of eight zero bits if the first byte in base-256 is >0x7f confuses me
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 314 2014-11-23 10:03:02 <sipa> it's because the exponent is in powers of 256
 315 2014-11-23 10:03:05 <sipa> not powers of 2
 316 2014-11-23 10:03:18 <sipa> ah
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 319 2014-11-23 10:03:29 <sipa> no, that's because the highest bit of the mantissa is the sign bit
 320 2014-11-23 10:03:59 <sipa> so you don't want the sign bit set, so you have to shift further
 321 2014-11-23 10:04:21 <null> actually i think it might have something to do with the base being limited to [-126;127]
 322 2014-11-23 10:04:36 <sipa> no, i just explained you
 323 2014-11-23 10:04:41 <null> okay
 324 2014-11-23 10:04:51 <sipa> 0xFFFFFF as mantissa is a negative number
 325 2014-11-23 10:05:02 <sipa> so you have to use 0xFFFF and shift further
 326 2014-11-23 10:05:25 <null> right! thanks
 327 2014-11-23 10:06:08 <null> mh, actually the first bit is the sign bit, followed by the exponent and only then the mantissa
 328 2014-11-23 10:06:23 <null> but it still makes sense
 329 2014-11-23 10:06:38 weilu has joined
 330 2014-11-23 10:06:51 <sipa> there's 8 bits of exponent, 1 bit of sign, 23 bits of mantissa
 331 2014-11-23 10:07:01 webdeli has joined
 332 2014-11-23 10:08:15 <null> well, damn you wikipedia! :)
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 345 2014-11-23 10:23:16 <sipa> what does wikipedia have to do with it?
 346 2014-11-23 10:25:07 <null> it says the first bit of the mantissa doesn't indicate the sign
 347 2014-11-23 10:25:44 <null> instead there is an extra sign bit, 8 bits of exponent, and 23 bits of mantissa
 348 2014-11-23 10:26:13 <null> and the sign bit is located at bit 0, not after 8 bits of exponent. at least if we're talking about ieee754
 349 2014-11-23 10:26:32 weilu_ has joined
 350 2014-11-23 10:27:00 <null> i got it
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 353 2014-11-23 10:27:42 <sipa> we're not talking about ieee754?
 354 2014-11-23 10:27:51 <sipa> the compact encoding is something satoshi invented afaik
 355 2014-11-23 10:28:00 weilu_ has joined
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 357 2014-11-23 10:28:09 <null> oh ok. so then it's not a native 'float'
 358 2014-11-23 10:28:18 <sipa> no, certainly not
 359 2014-11-23 10:28:26 <sipa> it's similar
 360 2014-11-23 10:28:32 <sipa> but it's base 256, not base 2
 361 2014-11-23 10:28:41 <null> but it still works as a native float, due to the quirk of prepending 0x00
 362 2014-11-23 10:29:06 upgradeadvice has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 363 2014-11-23 10:29:30 Blackreign has joined
 364 2014-11-23 10:29:37 <sipa> 'works as' ?
 365 2014-11-23 10:29:43 <sipa> i don't understand
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 367 2014-11-23 10:30:11 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/uint256.h#L308-320
 368 2014-11-23 10:30:22 b_lumenkraft has joined
 369 2014-11-23 10:30:30 <sipa> it's a 32-bit floating point encoding, but not ieee 754
 370 2014-11-23 10:30:53 <null> it can be interpreted as a ieee754 32-bit floating-point number and can be used in a semantically correct fashion
 371 2014-11-23 10:31:06 <sipa> no
 372 2014-11-23 10:31:20 <null> because, if satoshi designed the format, why would it have a sign anyway?
 373 2014-11-23 10:31:26 <sipa> ask him
 374 2014-11-23 10:31:47 upgradeadvice has joined
 375 2014-11-23 10:32:02 <sipa> as i said: it uses base 256, not base 2; i don't see how it can be compatible with ieee 754
 376 2014-11-23 10:32:07 <gmaxwell> null: it is not at all compatible, ... I cannot think of anything useful you could do treating those bits as a ieee754 number.
 377 2014-11-23 10:32:38 <null> why 'no'? in ieee you have 1 sign bit, 8 bits of exponent, 23bits of mantissa. if in base-256 your first bit is 1, i.e. >0x7f, you shift it right and prepend 00, and adjust the exponent
 378 2014-11-23 10:32:55 <null> because otherwise the leading 1 of the 24 bits of mantissa would bias the exponent
 379 2014-11-23 10:34:34 bost has joined
 380 2014-11-23 10:35:01 <sipa> but the 8 bits of exponent in the compact format are in base 256, and encode a multiplied of something between 256^-3 and 256^252
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 382 2014-11-23 10:35:27 <bost> hi. I've got a problem killing my bitcoind process:
 383 2014-11-23 10:35:31 <bost> pgrep --list-full bitcoind
 384 2014-11-23 10:35:31 <bost> 2150 /usr/bin/bitcoind -daemon
 385 2014-11-23 10:35:31 <bost>  
 386 2014-11-23 10:35:41 <sipa> the 8 bits of exponent in an ieee 754 are in base 2, and encode a multiplier of something between 2^-126 and 2^127
 387 2014-11-23 10:35:44 <bost> bitcoind stop
 388 2014-11-23 10:35:44 <bost> error: no response from server
 389 2014-11-23 10:35:44 <bost>  
 390 2014-11-23 10:35:54 <sipa> try killalll bitcoind
 391 2014-11-23 10:35:58 <sipa> it will shut down cleanly
 392 2014-11-23 10:35:59 <null> i agree. and i will use the correct interpretation. but i still think that this is just a scaling. and maybe i could use ieee754 to compute the strongest chain :)
 393 2014-11-23 10:36:19 <sipa> null: please don't
 394 2014-11-23 10:36:31 <null> i won't :)
 395 2014-11-23 10:36:34 <sipa> please don't use data types that have built-in rounding in consensus-critical code
 396 2014-11-23 10:36:49 <gmaxwell> null: these decisions must be utterly bit identical or you will be wrong and exploitable on account of it.
 397 2014-11-23 10:36:53 <sipa> and sure, it's "just some scaling", all floating point formats are essentially some form of scaling... that's all they do
 398 2014-11-23 10:36:55 <bost> sipa: it does not help
 399 2014-11-23 10:36:59 <bost> :(
 400 2014-11-23 10:37:06 <gmaxwell> bost: kill -9 2150
 401 2014-11-23 10:37:32 <bost> gmaxwell: that's what I don't want to do... I'd like to shut it down cleanly
 402 2014-11-23 10:37:34 Emzy_ has joined
 403 2014-11-23 10:37:39 <sipa> it shouldn't matter
 404 2014-11-23 10:37:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: Incidentally, I would never advise another to use killall for on solaris it does more precisely what the name suggests it may do.
 405 2014-11-23 10:37:50 <sipa> if it doesn't react to RPC, there's already a problem
 406 2014-11-23 10:38:01 <sipa> gmaxwell: ah!
 407 2014-11-23 10:38:43 <gmaxwell> bost: if it's not responding it's wedged your recourse is to kill it with no mercy. Any idea what got it in that state? what version is it? any unusual load?
 408 2014-11-23 10:39:36 napedia has joined
 409 2014-11-23 10:40:01 <sipa> bost: also, in newer versions of bitcoin you'll have to use bitcoin-cli stop; not bitcoind stop
 410 2014-11-23 10:40:10 bitbumper has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 411 2014-11-23 10:40:15 <bost> gmaxwell: I autostart start bitcoind -daemon in my session.
 412 2014-11-23 10:40:38 <bost> gmaxwell: and my laptop was off for about a week.
 413 2014-11-23 10:41:52 <gmaxwell> coryfields: leveldb build is chatty like make V=1 ... is there a reason we're not shutting it up?
 414 2014-11-23 10:41:57 <bost> gmaxwell: so yea it has to catch up with the block chain - so my load went to max. but that's acceptable.
 415 2014-11-23 10:42:51 <gmaxwell> oh, was it merely busy and not actually unresponsive?
 416 2014-11-23 10:43:01 <bost> gmaxwell: anyway I wanted to something else so at first I reniced it to +20 (min)
 417 2014-11-23 10:43:33 <bost> gmaxwell: that didn't help so I did bitcoind stop. but that didn't stop it.
 418 2014-11-23 10:44:11 <bost> gmaxwell: so I reniced it to 0 (normal) but even after that the bitcoind did not stop
 419 2014-11-23 10:44:14 NewLiberty has joined
 420 2014-11-23 10:44:32 <bost> gmaxwell: for a couple of minutes.
 421 2014-11-23 10:45:13 GM0127 has joined
 422 2014-11-23 10:45:19 <bost> gmaxwell: so I tried kill 2150, and even killall bitcoind but that didn't work.
 423 2014-11-23 10:46:11 <gmaxwell> bost: what version is this that you're running?
 424 2014-11-23 10:46:15 <bost> gmaxwell: so I went here and asked you for help and re-tried kill and killall
 425 2014-11-23 10:46:30 <bost> gmaxwell: fortunatelly it's terminated now.
 426 2014-11-23 10:47:02 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 427 2014-11-23 10:47:05 <bost> gmaxwell: wait a sec pls... I gotta start it again.
 428 2014-11-23 10:47:37 <bost> gmaxwell: oh it takes ages
 429 2014-11-23 10:48:27 <bost> gmaxwell: btw it was busy *and* unresponsive
 430 2014-11-23 10:48:59 <bost> $ bitcoind getinfo | grep version
 431 2014-11-23 10:48:59 <bost>     "version" : 90300,
 432 2014-11-23 10:48:59 <bost>     "protocolversion" : 70002,
 433 2014-11-23 10:48:59 <bost>     "walletversion" : 60000,
 434 2014-11-23 10:49:02 <bost>  
 435 2014-11-23 10:49:30 <gmaxwell> Well the version number is the first thing it emits in the debug.log and you can also run bitcoind -version
 436 2014-11-23 10:49:51 <bost> $ bitcoind -version
 437 2014-11-23 10:49:51 <bost> : Cannot obtain a lock on data directory /home/bost/.bitcoin. Bitcoin Core is probably already running.
 438 2014-11-23 10:49:51 <bost>  
 439 2014-11-23 10:49:58 <gmaxwell> uh. 903... you shouldn't be able to rpc against with the bitcoind command by itself.
 440 2014-11-23 10:54:23 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 442 2014-11-23 11:00:58 <bost> gmaxwell: uff it took me a while but I've got it:
 443 2014-11-23 11:00:58 <bost> $ aptitude show bitcoind | grep -i version
 444 2014-11-23 11:00:58 <bost> Version: 0.9.3-trusty2
 445 2014-11-23 11:00:58 <bost>  
 446 2014-11-23 11:00:59 <bost> gmaxwell: i think it's the latest... lemme check it.
 447 2014-11-23 11:01:44 <bost> gmaxwell: yea 0.9.3 is the latest.
 448 2014-11-23 11:02:56 <bost> gmaxwell: magically the bitcoind stop works now... uff uff
 449 2014-11-23 11:03:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: did we not remove the ability to use bitcoind as a rpc client in 0.9?
 450 2014-11-23 11:03:41 <sipa> null: also, a 32-bit ieee 754 float actually can't represent the numbers bitcoin uses as target; they're limited to (slightly less than) 2^128
 451 2014-11-23 11:06:21 <null> sipa: i know. i just thought i might be able to use the value to distinguish among more/less difficult, which should work. but only on a per-block level, probably not on a per-chain level
 452 2014-11-23 11:06:40 <sipa> per-block is not useful
 453 2014-11-23 11:06:41 <null> but never mind. i'll be using the correct format
 454 2014-11-23 11:06:41 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 455 2014-11-23 11:06:51 <null> sipa: yeah, i know :)
 456 2014-11-23 11:07:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: seems rpc sending through bitcoind still worked in 0.9.3
 457 2014-11-23 11:07:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: ah, how time flies on master.
 458 2014-11-23 11:09:46 Blackreign has quit ()
 459 2014-11-23 11:09:47 <HM> hi gmaxwell.
 460 2014-11-23 11:10:10 Hunger- has joined
 461 2014-11-23 11:10:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: 0.9.0 branched off in januari...
 462 2014-11-23 11:14:49 <gmaxwell> hm. why is getinfo yielding proxy: ""   when it's quite clearly using the proxy= I have set in the conf?
 463 2014-11-23 11:14:52 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: 90300 stands for 0.9.3 ??? Uhg...
 464 2014-11-23 11:15:13 <gmaxwell> bost: yes.
 465 2014-11-23 11:15:29 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: what kind of strange version numbering is that? :-(
 466 2014-11-23 11:15:57 <gmaxwell> 09 03 00 with the leading 0 omitted.
 467 2014-11-23 11:17:03 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: but that's insane!!! how on earth should anyone know how many leading zeros do you use?
 468 2014-11-23 11:17:13 vmatekole has joined
 469 2014-11-23 11:17:31 <gmaxwell> its unambigious
 470 2014-11-23 11:17:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: uh. something has broken the proxy handling it seems.
 471 2014-11-23 11:19:14 Blackreign has joined
 472 2014-11-23 11:19:20 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: unambigious??? 1st leading 0 is omitted, 2nd is not... what about the 3rd one?
 473 2014-11-23 11:19:54 <gmaxwell> bost: what are you going on about?
 474 2014-11-23 11:20:35 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: I'm ranting about version numbering!
 475 2014-11-23 11:20:58 <gmaxwell> Please take it elsewhere since it seems to have no relationship to anything of substance.
 476 2014-11-23 11:21:05 * bost calm down man
 477 2014-11-23 11:22:36 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: well... where elsewhere if not here on -dev channel?
 478 2014-11-23 11:22:53 <sipa> bost: it's a very common way of internally storing version numbers; you can also look in the log, in the -version output, in the about dialog, in the release notes, ... if you want it human-formatted
 479 2014-11-23 11:23:57 <sipa> and it seems you did
 480 2014-11-23 11:24:20 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: I'm doing software for about 16 years and I can tell ya it is NOT.
 481 2014-11-23 11:25:16 <bost> gmaxwell: sipa: btw bitcoind -version doesn't work:
 482 2014-11-23 11:25:18 <bost> : Cannot obtain a lock on data directory /home/bost/.bitcoin. Bitcoin Core is probably already running.
 483 2014-11-23 11:25:18 <bost>  
 484 2014-11-23 11:25:23 <sipa> use bitcoin-cli
 485 2014-11-23 11:25:27 op_null has joined
 486 2014-11-23 11:25:36 <bost> bitcoin-cli -version
 487 2014-11-23 11:25:37 <bost> error: too few parameters
 488 2014-11-23 11:25:37 <bost>  
 489 2014-11-23 11:25:44 <sipa> ah, that's good to know
 490 2014-11-23 11:25:49 <bost> ehg???
 491 2014-11-23 11:25:50 <sipa> we should support -version there
 492 2014-11-23 11:25:52 <op_null> gmaxwell: I can't replicate that, I'm running master with a proxy set and it seems to be operating fine.
 493 2014-11-23 11:26:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: we do.
 494 2014-11-23 11:26:48 <sipa> bost: the linux kernel for example uses a very similar version number scheme internally
 495 2014-11-23 11:26:48 <bost> $ bitcoin-cli version
 496 2014-11-23 11:26:49 <bost> error: {"code":-32601,"message":"Method not found"}
 497 2014-11-23 11:26:49 <bost>  
 498 2014-11-23 11:26:59 <bost> bitcoin-cli getversion
 499 2014-11-23 11:26:59 <bost> error: {"code":-32601,"message":"Method not found"}
 500 2014-11-23 11:26:59 <bost>  
 501 2014-11-23 11:27:09 <bost> nothing of that works...
 502 2014-11-23 11:27:16 <sipa> that would be sending the command 'getversion' to a running bitcoind
 503 2014-11-23 11:27:39 <gmaxwell> bost: it's fine in git master, presumably we fixed that in the nearly year since the branching there.
 504 2014-11-23 11:27:54 <sipa> and bitcoin-cli -version is supported in the upcoming release; just not yet in the 0.9 branch it seems
 505 2014-11-23 11:28:02 <sipa> sorry about that, but will be fixed soon :)
 506 2014-11-23 11:28:27 <sipa> also, bitcoind -version works fine, even if bitcoind is already running
 507 2014-11-23 11:28:32 <sipa> (in the master branch)
 508 2014-11-23 11:29:09 <bost> sipa: $ uname -r
 509 2014-11-23 11:29:09 <bost> 3.16.0-24-generic
 510 2014-11-23 11:29:09 <bost>  
 511 2014-11-23 11:29:23 <sipa> i said internally
 512 2014-11-23 11:29:56 <bost> sipa: I see here major/minor numbers clearly separated by the '.'
 513 2014-11-23 11:30:05 <sipa> bost: i said internally
 514 2014-11-23 11:30:24 <sipa> really, this is leading nowhere
 515 2014-11-23 11:30:36 <bost> sipa: Ok. I'm stopping... sorry
 516 2014-11-23 11:30:44 <sipa> the RPC returns the internal version number used to identify clients
 517 2014-11-23 11:31:10 <sipa> if you want the version string, you can use -version (which up to 0.9 indeed didn't always seem to work, but that will be improved soon)
 518 2014-11-23 11:33:05 <HM> gmaxwell, turns out there was an EC based SRP proposal by made to IEEE P1363 working group by the author of SRP-5 in 2001.
 519 2014-11-23 11:33:40 <HM> gmaxwell, a naive transform of SRP-6a to an EC group is vulnerable to server impersonation and offline bruteforce
 520 2014-11-23 11:33:41 <gmaxwell> op_null: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4327#issuecomment-64114615
 521 2014-11-23 11:36:01 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 522 2014-11-23 11:36:05 <op_null> gmaxwell: that explains why, I used a raw SOCKS proxy rather than anything with -onlynet. good catch.
 523 2014-11-23 11:36:51 iwilcox has joined
 524 2014-11-23 11:37:54 <gmaxwell> op_null: looks like I'm wrong about the name proxy, part at least, so it may just be cosmetic.
 525 2014-11-23 11:39:57 <fanquake> If anyone has some testnet coins handy, I could use a few. Cheers in advance. mpihspoiEkKMtZRg8Lst3LX2TGPqTQEAqF
 526 2014-11-23 11:43:24 okae has joined
 527 2014-11-23 11:44:12 <gmaxwell> op_null: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5355
 528 2014-11-23 11:47:02 luktgf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 529 2014-11-23 11:47:15 <op_null> gmaxwell:  payment protocol connections leak" whoops.
 530 2014-11-23 11:48:41 <gmaxwell> op_null: we probably need a systematic test plan for connection leaks.
 531 2014-11-23 11:50:47 bost has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 532 2014-11-23 11:51:20 <op_null> as another test for travisci or something which can be done manually? I can see an easy way to do the latter.
 533 2014-11-23 11:51:21 CheckDavid has joined
 534 2014-11-23 11:52:04 <gmaxwell> manually.
 535 2014-11-23 11:52:15 <gmaxwell> I dunno how to usefully automate it.
 536 2014-11-23 11:53:24 <op_null> you could probably do an automated system inside a virtual machine and record all of the network traffic, but that's pretty fragile.
 537 2014-11-23 11:54:27 <gmaxwell> yea, I meant "without boiling the oceans." :)
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 542 2014-11-23 12:00:12 <op_null> yeah yeah. it's not an easy problem to solve because the failure modes aren't black and white.
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 604 2014-11-23 13:36:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah just a "Only use the RPC if you know what you're doing" or something
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 637 2014-11-23 14:26:38 <JijoJohn> Dear experts, Newbie here. I'm planning to use could server from softlayer [ k2 series nvidia GPU cards], Could you suggest the OS and mining software
 638 2014-11-23 14:26:48 <sipa> #bitcoin-mining please
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 675 2014-11-23 15:37:37 <phillipsjk> I thought of a use-case for the Blockchain data .torrent even after the 0.10 release. Bittorrent  allows you to finely throttle the download speed to avoid saturating your Internet connection and disrupting low-latency services.
 676 2014-11-23 15:38:11 <phillipsjk> Bitcoin by its nature seems to have very bursty data usage.
 677 2014-11-23 15:39:34 <sipa> why is this specific to bittorrent?
 678 2014-11-23 15:40:07 <sipa> after 0.10 is well deployed we can easily add throttling to bitcoin core too
 679 2014-11-23 15:40:19 <kanzure> well you see, users don't understand how to limit their download rates, and isps are already throttling torrents for users automatically
 680 2014-11-23 15:40:21 <op_null> phillipsjk: you can use QoS on your router to make sure your other traffic (SSH, HTTP) has higher priority than Bitcoin P2P. you don't need to worry about application level controls if you do this.
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 683 2014-11-23 15:41:09 <phillipsjk> QoS only really helps with outgoing traffic, not incoming traffic.
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 685 2014-11-23 15:41:57 <phillipsjk> sipa because Bittorrent is a mature application designed to download form many hosts at once.
 686 2014-11-23 15:42:05 <runeks> petertodd: Shouldn't a headers message be deserialized into CBlockHeader(s) rather than CBlock(s)? https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/bitcoin/messages.py#L310
 687 2014-11-23 15:42:41 <sipa> phillipsjk: yes, so?
 688 2014-11-23 15:43:01 <op_null> what you are talking about (seeding blocks) is a very much upstream activity. most residential ADSL connections are asymmetric, so the upstream connections are the most restricted.
 689 2014-11-23 15:43:22 <sipa> if downloading with bittorrent is more efficient, please use it
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 691 2014-11-23 15:43:46 <sipa> but i don't see what this has to do with throttling?
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 693 2014-11-23 15:44:48 <sipa> the reason bitcoin itself so far does not throttle outgoing bandwidth is because peers deal very badly with it, with the sync mechanism used until 0
 694 2014-11-23 15:44:54 <sipa> 0.9.x
 695 2014-11-23 15:45:23 <sipa> in 0.10 this is no longer a concern as thete is parallel block fetching
 696 2014-11-23 15:45:59 <phillipsjk> I only bring it up because an alt-coin I installed yesterday (presumably with fewer transactions) was intermittently saturating my connection with what is assumed to be a single fast peer. Requests for blocks are much smaller than the actual blocks.
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 698 2014-11-23 15:46:47 <sipa> i'm still not clear what you are trying to say
 699 2014-11-23 15:47:03 <sipa> is it about downstream or upstream throttling?
 700 2014-11-23 15:47:30 <sipa> is it about initial download or normal block relay?
 701 2014-11-23 15:47:30 <phillipsjk> It may be worthy of a note in the change log that downloading may now be fast enough to disrupt other internet users on a shared connection.
 702 2014-11-23 15:47:44 <phillipsjk> initial download.
 703 2014-11-23 15:47:49 <sipa> heh?
 704 2014-11-23 15:48:06 <sipa> 0.10 downloads in parallel from all outgoing peers
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 706 2014-11-23 15:48:19 <sipa> earlier versions.synced from a single peer
 707 2014-11-23 15:48:35 <sipa> the new.code should be much more friendly to peers
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 709 2014-11-23 15:49:18 <phillipsjk> I am talking about room-mates trying to play video games or making VOIP calls requiring low latency.
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 711 2014-11-23 15:49:35 <sipa> ok
 712 2014-11-23 15:49:58 <sipa> but are you talking about downstream or upstream?
 713 2014-11-23 15:50:07 <phillipsjk> downstream.
 714 2014-11-23 15:50:22 <sipa> oh ok
 715 2014-11-23 15:50:43 <sipa> we could easily add throttling for initial download
 716 2014-11-23 15:52:26 <op_null> sipa: take it as a compliment, your headers first code is just too good.
 717 2014-11-23 15:52:28 <phillipsjk> at 25Mbps a 1MB block will still take over 3 seconds.
 718 2014-11-23 15:53:01 <phillipsjk> I was not actually testing with the headers code. Just a stupidly fast peer.
 719 2014-11-23 15:53:18 <op_null> phillipsjk: you might want to check the math on that.
 720 2014-11-23 15:53:46 <phillipsjk> 25/8
 721 2014-11-23 15:54:20 <op_null> it would take 320 milliseconds, not 3 seconds.
 722 2014-11-23 15:56:06 <phillipsjk> 25Megabits/s / 8 bytes/bit = 3.125 Megabytes/s -- OK, you are right.
 723 2014-11-23 15:57:22 * phillipsjk usually uses 10bit bytes to keep the math simple and conservative.
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 726 2014-11-23 15:59:18 <sipa> well throttling the download of a single block would slow down block propagation speed, which is pretty essential to the network
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 728 2014-11-23 15:59:46 <sipa> but during initial download it does not really matter
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 734 2014-11-23 16:03:46 <phillipsjk> throttling individual blocks would not work until the majority of node upgrade. Just limiting block requests is probably enough.
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 738 2014-11-23 16:07:46 <sipa> phillipsjk: are you talking upstream or downstream now?
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 740 2014-11-23 16:08:11 <sipa> downstream is trivial, as each node decides when to fetch which block from where
 741 2014-11-23 16:08:17 <phillipsjk> Befopre a peer sends you a block, you have to request it, no?
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 745 2014-11-23 16:08:58 <sipa> upstream is harder as it would severely impact pre-0.10 nodes from downloading the chain
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 747 2014-11-23 16:09:06 <phillipsjk> I was responding to "throttling the download of a single block
 748 2014-11-23 16:09:29 <phillipsjk> Upstream router QoS can kick-in.
 749 2014-11-23 16:09:37 <sipa> throttling the download of a single incoming block is trivial too
 750 2014-11-23 16:09:59 <sipa> but just a bad idea for block propagation through the network
 751 2014-11-23 16:10:14 <op_null> blocks are like TCP, three stages. peer2 announces their new inventory, peer1 sends a request for the data if they want it, peer2 sends it back
 752 2014-11-23 16:10:21 <phillipsjk> I assumed you get the whole block at once when requested.
 753 2014-11-23 16:11:00 <sipa> yes but you can delay reading from the socket
 754 2014-11-23 16:11:23 <sipa> which means transmission control kicks in, slowing down the sender
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 756 2014-11-23 16:12:28 <phillipsjk> Becuase more thna one TCP packet is used, IC.
 757 2014-11-23 16:13:52 <sipa> tcp packets are 1.5 kilobytes typically
 758 2014-11-23 16:14:15 * phillipsjk is late for work
 759 2014-11-23 16:14:25 <phillipsjk> Thanks for the chat.
 760 2014-11-23 16:14:33 <sipa> yw!
 761 2014-11-23 16:14:47 <sipa> thanks for bringing the topic up
 762 2014-11-23 16:15:22 <sipa> i never realozed that someone would consider using available downstream bandwidth to receive blocks faster, a problem
 763 2014-11-23 16:15:33 <sipa> *realized
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 765 2014-11-23 16:16:41 <phillipsjk> I didn't either 'til my room-mate complained. (but could not actually be sure their game was disrupted during the download.)
 766 2014-11-23 16:17:17 <sipa> i have often heard requests to be able to throttle upstream
 767 2014-11-23 16:17:39 <sipa> but that is hard until peers actually deal well with it
 768 2014-11-23 16:17:52 <sipa> which will be after 0.10 is deployed
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 783 2014-11-23 16:46:48 <jgarzik> Indeed, you could throttle older blocks in theory.  But given <0.10 's lack of peer switching, that would hurt them the most.
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 789 2014-11-23 16:57:48 <op_null> from observing people getting introduced to wallets with more than one address, there's some things that seem to confuse people a lot. first and foremost people think that they can't use an address once it has been hidden by the client.
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 791 2014-11-23 16:59:00 <op_null> Breadwallet has taken the design where they show a "receiving address" that is rotated into a new one as soon as it sees a transaction. you could call this ideal behaviour, but people seem to think that once it's been rotated the old address is lost and any further funds sent to it will be destroyed.
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 793 2014-11-23 16:59:27 <magichex> hi there just quick question
 794 2014-11-23 16:59:44 <sipa> well ideally imho wallets should not show any aaddress or otger cryptographic material for human consumption at all
 795 2014-11-23 16:59:48 <magichex> is it possible to get block reward from coin daemon via rpc json ?
 796 2014-11-23 17:00:34 <op_null> the second thing is a bit of an odd one I wasn't expecting. people are super confused by the fact that they can't "check" if their money is still there using a block explorer. this one isn't something that can be solved, it's the normal thing where people freak out about change addresses, but magnified because they try to look at their old addresses and panic more.
 797 2014-11-23 17:01:32 <op_null> sipa: of course not, but users seem to demand it as it gives them more "control", or something, though really that's not a positive thing to be happening at all.
 798 2014-11-23 17:02:00 <sipa> indeed
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 801 2014-11-23 17:02:42 <op_null> in a way the second one is weird, it suggests that people trust a lookup on blockchain.info more than the number displayed in their wallet. really the one in their wallet should be absolute unless they expect to be on a side fork with a totally different reality.
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 803 2014-11-23 17:05:48 <op_null> I suppose if you are using an SPV wallet there's the risk that one of your peers lied to you and told you that you have less money than you thought. that's probably improved by wallets not doing their filtering just on one peer. I don't know if there's ever been a single case of a lying peer on the network though.
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 907 2014-11-23 19:56:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: wrt throttling, upstream complaints are more common since upstreams tend to be slower for those poor souls effected by buffer bloat, but both directions are potentially an issue.
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 928 2014-11-23 20:18:45 <gmaxwell> I'm trolling for ACKs on two pretty trivial pull REQs: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5351 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5154
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 937 2014-11-23 20:30:38 <Luke-Jr> on that point, why is bitcoin-cli failing if there's no datadir? :/
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 943 2014-11-23 20:35:58 <paveljanik> Luke-Jr: it is trying to read config file from there.
 944 2014-11-23 20:36:10 <Luke-Jr> paveljanik: yes, but it should work even without it
 945 2014-11-23 20:36:25 <paveljanik> yes, definitely ;-)
 946 2014-11-23 20:37:04 <paveljanik> it should be pretty easy to fix
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1002 2014-11-23 22:02:02 <english-> hey folks..... newbie question here. Is there an example within the code that converts from a RIPEMD160 hash of the public key to the bitcoin address in standard format?
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1052 2014-11-23 23:11:48 <rgenito_> ah man, there's no way to do offline cold storage with the default bitcoin core wallet? =[
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1056 2014-11-23 23:17:16 <gmaxwell> rgenito_: sure there is, but you need to use raw transactions.
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1058 2014-11-23 23:19:28 <rgenito_> gmaxwell, oooh really?
1059 2014-11-23 23:19:31 <rgenito_> i mean, i'm fine with that
1060 2014-11-23 23:19:40 <rgenito_> do you know of a good tutorial online using bitcoin-core ?
1061 2014-11-23 23:24:45 <gmaxwell> I did a simple walk through here, https://people.xiph.org/~greg/signdemo.txt  but its even easier/better now that we have some watching wallet support.
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1078 2014-11-23 23:53:14 <op_null> rgenito_: if your response to "lets use raw transactions" isn't sweaty palms then you really ought not be using them. there's a lot of chance for some extreme footgunning there, and almost no safeguards.
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1080 2014-11-23 23:56:14 <moa> rawhide TX
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