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  16 2014-11-25 00:27:41 <discreteunit> I wonder whether there's been any discussion around the expected Intel SHA Extensions and their impact on Bitcoin Core, if any?
  17 2014-11-25 00:28:11 <phantomcircuit> discreteunit, effectively zero
  18 2014-11-25 00:28:18 <phantomcircuit> maybe some trivial speed up to verification
  19 2014-11-25 00:29:35 <discreteunit> Is there currently an effective forum for such a conversation?
  20 2014-11-25 00:29:52 <phantomcircuit> you're in it
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  25 2014-11-25 00:33:57 <discreteunit> Even CodePlex discussion boards seem preferable to IRC in this context...
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  30 2014-11-25 00:38:18 <CodeShark> SHA is not really the bottleneck in Bitcoin Core
  31 2014-11-25 00:38:29 <CodeShark> I/O and ECDSA are much bigger bottlenecks
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  33 2014-11-25 00:41:10 <discreteunit> I wonder about it more from a communication perspective. I am not aware of a comparable offering on GitHub, and the SourceForge mailing lists would seem to be a cumbersome reference point at best.
  34 2014-11-25 00:42:13 <CodeShark> sha optimization only has a significant effect on mining - but even with the SHA extensions, CPU mining cannot compete with ASICs
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  36 2014-11-25 00:43:38 <CodeShark> CPU optimization on SHA would only matter if the result of SHA calculations had frequent effects on execution path
  37 2014-11-25 00:43:59 <CodeShark> which for bitcoin they do not
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  40 2014-11-25 00:44:25 <CodeShark> *for bitcoin mining
  41 2014-11-25 00:44:42 <discreteunit> Undoubtedly so, but this reasoning needs visibility and a feedback loop.
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  44 2014-11-25 00:48:06 <CodeShark> a simple calculation - how many sha operations does Bitcoin Core need to perform per second on average?
  45 2014-11-25 00:48:21 <discreteunit> One might argue that the same goes for Gavin's Scalability Roadmap. The Foundation's blog posts offer no commenting functionality.
  46 2014-11-25 00:48:53 <CodeShark> every network message requires a sha256 checksum, every transaction requires hashing, every block header requires hashing
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  49 2014-11-25 00:49:47 <CodeShark> but a transaction only requires two sha256 operations to obtain the tx hash and requires a sha256 and a ripemd160 operation to compute pubkey and script hashes
  50 2014-11-25 00:50:01 <CodeShark> so about one per spent output
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  53 2014-11-25 00:51:20 <CodeShark> and then another per signature
  54 2014-11-25 00:51:36 <CodeShark> so we're talking about no more than a few thousand sha256 operations per block
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  57 2014-11-25 00:52:35 <CodeShark> I don't really think there's much further reasoning required :)
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  59 2014-11-25 00:53:40 <CodeShark> to address scalability, the protocol itself will require some significant revamping
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  63 2014-11-25 00:54:11 <discreteunit> There may or may not be for Intel SHA Ext. But my questions is broader and inquires about a framework for such discussions a la, say, https://roslyn.codeplex.com/discussions/topics/5998/c-language-design
  64 2014-11-25 00:54:21 <CodeShark> i.e. it's not really sensible for every single node to have to validate every single transaction for every single other node
  65 2014-11-25 00:55:37 <CodeShark> IRC leaves a lot to be desired, for sure
  66 2014-11-25 00:56:46 <discreteunit> Precisely. And GitHub isn't quite filling that void. Neither is SourceForge.
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  68 2014-11-25 00:58:38 <CodeShark> you can always try your luck at bitcointalk :p
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  75 2014-11-25 01:00:16 <gmaxwell> discreteunit: wrt the sha instructions; patches accepted. (well.. acceptance may be delayed since I could not test them yet. :) ).
  76 2014-11-25 01:01:10 <CodeShark> sha instructions are nice if you're dealing with massive throughput of messages
  77 2014-11-25 01:01:14 <gmaxwell> SHA256 isn't invsible in profiles by any means, ... and it'll get larger as we optimize other things. I expect the improvement to be relatively modest. Intels numbers sounded like they were only on the order of 4-6x faster than a most optimized 4-way SIMD sha256 implementation.
  78 2014-11-25 01:06:37 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: intel's sha instruction set?
  79 2014-11-25 01:06:42 <Diablo-D3> I thought it could only do sha1
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  83 2014-11-25 01:09:51 <CodeShark> https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-sha-extensions claims it can do SHA256 as well
  84 2014-11-25 01:10:30 <CodeShark> three instructions for it
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  86 2014-11-25 01:11:36 <kadoban> It'd be pretty weird if they were adding it now not to support sha-2
  87 2014-11-25 01:11:52 <CodeShark> what about sha-3? :)
  88 2014-11-25 01:13:04 <CodeShark> or even sha-512? :)
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  93 2014-11-25 01:19:37 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they do all of sha2.
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 120 2014-11-25 02:02:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, the assert(!"string") pattern is weird. :)
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 152 2014-11-25 02:31:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I presume it's why _Static_assert takes 2 arguments
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 181 2014-11-25 03:01:10 <coderwill> hey all, quick noob BIP 32 question - if I know the word list on electrum or mycelium, i can install either on any device and I'll automatically gain access to my master seed and subsequent assigned to it?
 182 2014-11-25 03:01:39 <coderwill> subsequent BTC*
 183 2014-11-25 03:07:04 <netg> yeah, thats the plan
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 185 2014-11-25 03:09:53 <phantomcircuit> coderwill, in theory yes, in practice probably, will it work 100% of the time? probably not
 186 2014-11-25 03:10:03 <phantomcircuit> will it work 99.999% of the time? probably
 187 2014-11-25 03:10:59 <CodeShark> word lists are not part of the BIP32 spec
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 192 2014-11-25 03:14:40 <CodeShark> the master seed format is part of BIP32, but the way a wallet organizes the HD tree is not
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 197 2014-11-25 03:22:42 <CodeShark> does electrum even use BIP32?
 198 2014-11-25 03:23:02 <CodeShark> oh, yes - it does have support for BIP32 accounts
 199 2014-11-25 03:23:41 <belcher> version 2.0 does
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 201 2014-11-25 03:26:21 <flirtcoin> My goodness look at all the devs lol
 202 2014-11-25 03:32:26 <coderwill> thanks all for the feedback on my question
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 279 2014-11-25 05:42:28 <abishek> anybody here have experience with bitpay integration?
 280 2014-11-25 05:42:55 <phantomcircuit> #bitcoin
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 442 2014-11-25 08:10:32 <Luke-Jr> is this "ABISprotocol" person anyone to pay attention to?
 443 2014-11-25 08:14:37 <gmaxwell> I dread asking why
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 446 2014-11-25 08:21:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: their comments on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5231#issuecomment-64320763
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 450 2014-11-25 08:26:21 <Luke-Jr> (I'm inclined to ignore them)
 451 2014-11-25 08:26:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: may make more sense to just bring it up again later, jeff expressed a concern about some potential existing users.
 452 2014-11-25 08:26:42 <gmaxwell> Yes, I'd ignore but in any case, seems perhaps premature.
 453 2014-11-25 08:26:48 <gmaxwell> I wish we had an intermediate option.
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 458 2014-11-25 08:30:56 <Luke-Jr> I suppose we could try the "refuse to mine unless a decision is made" path again.. dunno if anyone will go for that
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 460 2014-11-25 08:32:14 <gmaxwell> bleh, nah. not worth it. just make the case for this again before the next release, perhaps backed up with some data.
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 469 2014-11-25 08:39:43 <Diablo-D3> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1942805829/artison-rcc-nano
 470 2014-11-25 08:39:44 <Diablo-D3> man
 471 2014-11-25 08:39:56 <Diablo-D3> kickstarter is kind of a scam
 472 2014-11-25 08:40:04 <Diablo-D3> people fund projects no one gives a fuck about
 473 2014-11-25 08:40:11 <Diablo-D3> but shit like this? nope, no funding
 474 2014-11-25 08:43:25 <Luke-Jr> it's just a speaker, you can get those for like $50
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 476 2014-11-25 08:43:52 <gwillen> Diablo-D3: I can't speak for everyone else, but I live in an apartment. "More bass" is anti-valuable to me.
 477 2014-11-25 08:44:18 * Luke-Jr wonders if the Novena will be delivered Nov as planned :p
 478 2014-11-25 08:44:19 <Diablo-D3> gwillen: I live in an apartment
 479 2014-11-25 08:44:23 <Diablo-D3> Im still getting a sub
 480 2014-11-25 08:44:37 <gwillen> I like keeping the peace with my neighbors too much to get a subwoofer.
 481 2014-11-25 08:44:48 <Diablo-D3> I love my adam audio a3xes and all, but they mangle the audio on bass powerful tracks
 482 2014-11-25 08:44:56 <Diablo-D3> because, well, they can reproduce it.
 483 2014-11-25 08:45:04 <Diablo-D3> they're 4.5" woofers that go the whole way down to 60hz
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 485 2014-11-25 08:45:14 <gmaxwell>  <- channel
 486 2014-11-25 08:45:30 <Diablo-D3> ^--- gmaxwell
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 488 2014-11-25 08:45:53 <Diablo-D3> this was meant for #bitcoin anyways
 489 2014-11-25 08:49:54 <Diablo-D3> gwillen: the reason to get a sub is to take the load off your main speakers, btw
 490 2014-11-25 08:50:12 <Diablo-D3> if your sub is just a thud machine, your entire theatre setup is just broken
 491 2014-11-25 08:50:16 StephJsBitDev has joined
 492 2014-11-25 08:51:09 <Diablo-D3> and yes, a lot of el cheapo home theatre in a box setups have a thud machine for a sub
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 494 2014-11-25 08:51:45 <Diablo-D3> sats with 3" mids, entire 5.1 set is like 300w
 495 2014-11-25 08:51:49 <Diablo-D3> whole thing is shit
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 579 2014-11-25 10:55:05 <Diablo-D3> http://hitgub.com
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 582 2014-11-25 11:02:01 <b_lumenkraft> hehe, that’s cute. :)
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 637 2014-11-25 13:17:56 <runeks> Will there be any need for bootstrap.dat once bitcoind is able to do initial sync from multiple peers?
 638 2014-11-25 13:18:43 <Luke-Jr> runeks: unlikely
 639 2014-11-25 13:19:23 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Cool. I guess that's a good thing.
 640 2014-11-25 13:20:29 <sipa> runeks: git master is capable of that right now :)
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 642 2014-11-25 13:21:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I suspect there may be corner cases *cough*rebroad*cough* that may work less well than the torrent right now? :P
 643 2014-11-25 13:21:30 <sipa> oh, i'm sure
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 645 2014-11-25 13:22:01 <runeks> sipa: Cool. I guess I should start using that, so I can serve multiple peers at once.
 646 2014-11-25 13:22:16 <runeks> What's rebroad?
 647 2014-11-25 13:22:22 <sipa> runeks: every version ever could *serve* multiple peers at once
 648 2014-11-25 13:22:42 <sipa> it's just the fetching mechanism that couldn't synchronize from multiple peers at once
 649 2014-11-25 13:22:49 <runeks> Ah, I see.
 650 2014-11-25 13:22:51 Grishnakh has joined
 651 2014-11-25 13:22:51 <Luke-Jr> runeks: rebroad is an occasional contributor to Bitcoin Core who has particularly broken internet connection
 652 2014-11-25 13:22:59 MasterThrall has joined
 653 2014-11-25 13:23:10 <runeks> So master can sync from multiple peers that are running earlier versions of bitcoind?
 654 2014-11-25 13:23:12 <Luke-Jr> so he's often trying to suggest some bad ideas that might make his node work better
 655 2014-11-25 13:23:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: and computer
 656 2014-11-25 13:23:21 <runeks> Luke-Jr: Ah
 657 2014-11-25 13:23:27 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ?
 658 2014-11-25 13:23:55 <sipa> runeks: yes, from versions down to 0.3.18 :)
 659 2014-11-25 13:24:14 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well he also had some very strange behavior before which suggest his computer/install is broken too, but sure it may all be caused by the internet connection :-)
 660 2014-11-25 13:24:18 <runeks> sipa: Cool. That's good news. I guess I don't have to update then.
 661 2014-11-25 13:24:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: heh, why am I not surprised? :>
 662 2014-11-25 13:24:36 <Luke-Jr> :P*
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 664 2014-11-25 13:25:42 <wumpus> on one hand, that works better to find problems than any fuzzer, on the other hand, the solutions he comes up with are usually meh
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 793 2014-11-25 16:53:38 <eric___> What does blockchain.info, blocktrail.com and chain.com have in common? For a particular address, they are all showing an incorrect recieved amount, with the exact same incorrect recieved amount
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 795 2014-11-25 16:54:40 <eric___> In fact, merely adding up blockchain.info’s own list of transactions, shows the correct total.
 796 2014-11-25 16:55:14 <eric___> I’m having trouble reconsiling the fact that three supposedly independent sites exhibit the same bug
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 807 2014-11-25 17:02:38 <hearn> eric___: which address?
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 809 2014-11-25 17:04:04 <eric___> hearn: Ended up figuring it out. If the output address is in the list of the input address, all the above sites exclude it from being considered “total recieved”
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 811 2014-11-25 17:04:27 <eric___> Which is rather counter-intuitive behavior
 812 2014-11-25 17:04:49 <eric___> The problematic transaciton was this one: https://blockchain.info/tx/c2c76704c6c5916d0a5e398d28f47d5df4e7d507917b04ad56eb378e98fcae44
 813 2014-11-25 17:05:01 <eric___> Where 13ty… is in both the inputs and the outputs
 814 2014-11-25 17:05:09 <eric___> So it doesn’t count toward the “total recieved”
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 889 2014-11-25 19:01:51 <maraoz> Does Bitcoin Core use the SCRIPT_VERIFY_LOW_S flag on by default to verify transactions? This test https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/ca6fb4e885c899e297e0a6fa723604a41f199aa6/src/test/script_tests.cpp#L415 seems to indicate it doesn't, but I'm not sure
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 891 2014-11-25 19:04:26 <gmaxwell> maraoz: it doesn't, not yet. Why?
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 898 2014-11-25 19:14:44 <maraoz> gmaxwell: thanks! just wanted to make sure current bitcore version is not generating invalid txs. I guess implementing BIP62 new rules is a good idea for a future release
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 900 2014-11-25 19:17:29 <gmaxwell> You should implement low S for all your transactions as soon as you easily can. But indeed, they're fine for the moment.
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 902 2014-11-25 19:20:34 <gmaxwell> since if there is another wave of mutant transactions miners may begin enforcing low-S as an IsStandard rule or some kind of priortiziation scheme for all transactions to stop the bleeding.
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 908 2014-11-25 19:27:51 <maraoz> gmaxwell: gotcha. We'll probably include the new BIP62 rules for the next major release in December
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 913 2014-11-25 19:29:31 <gmaxwell> Well the only thing I think you need to do right away is just the low-S signing. BIP62 isn't deployed yet, and the full thing involves v3 transactions which aren't relayed yet.
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