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 246 2014-11-26 07:42:04 <earlz> around how big is the testnet blockchain these days?
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 249 2014-11-26 07:45:27 <fanquake> 1.7GB
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 251 2014-11-26 07:47:53 <earlz> ah, not too big for my laptop then
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 360 2014-11-26 10:55:49 <cfields> out of town 'til next sunday, happy hacking everyone
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 378 2014-11-26 11:15:55 <gavinandresen> sipa: I don’t understand your comment “Whatever we are or were comfortable with, this adds
 379 2014-11-26 11:15:58 <gavinandresen> another 100 nonprunable blocks."
 380 2014-11-26 11:16:19 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 382 2014-11-26 11:17:07 <gavinandresen> sipa: also: none of the block indices keep track of the block’s coinbase transaction, do they?
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 386 2014-11-26 11:21:21 <gavinandresen> sipa: also, re: re-orgs hitting the disk a little bit more and maybe propagating slightly slower: seems like a feature, not a bug; disincentivizing reorg-the-chain is good for making attacks like selfish mining unprofitable.
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 392 2014-11-26 11:31:13 <jtimon> I can't build the current master
 393 2014-11-26 11:31:15 <jtimon> /usr/include/string.h:407:33: error: conflicts with new declaration with ‘C’ linkage
 394 2014-11-26 11:31:15 <jtimon>       __THROW __attribute_pure__ __nonnull ((1));
 395 2014-11-26 11:31:15 <jtimon>                                  ^
 396 2014-11-26 11:31:15 <jtimon> /usr/include/string.h:407:33: error: declaration of ‘size_t strnlen(const char*, size_t) throw ()’ has a different exception specifier
 397 2014-11-26 11:31:59 <wumpus> jtimon: you need to remove src/bitcoin-config.h, I had the same problem
 398 2014-11-26 11:32:02 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: sounds like somehow the fallback strnlen is getting in there
 399 2014-11-26 11:32:21 <paveljanik> you are all faster when typing than I am ;-)
 400 2014-11-26 11:32:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that suggests something is broken with the build system? :/
 401 2014-11-26 11:32:42 <paveljanik> #5374
 402 2014-11-26 11:32:44 <wumpus> people moved around the bitcoin-config.h but somehow the old one is being picked up
 403 2014-11-26 11:32:49 <Luke-Jr> ah
 404 2014-11-26 11:33:02 <paveljanik> jtimon: please try #5374
 405 2014-11-26 11:33:14 <paveljanik> if it fixes it in your current build tree please
 406 2014-11-26 11:33:23 <jtimon> wumpus yes thank you that seemed to work
 407 2014-11-26 11:33:27 <wumpus> I'd really prefer if you'd stop moving it, all those moving files make me dizzy
 408 2014-11-26 11:35:32 <wumpus> paveljanik: yup we should test if that solves the issue
 409 2014-11-26 11:35:36 <paveljanik> move over it
 410 2014-11-26 11:35:57 <paveljanik> jtimon: can you re-create the file with probably #error inside?
 411 2014-11-26 11:37:22 <jtimon> paveljanik I'm not sure what you want me to do, fetch and build #5374 ?
 412 2014-11-26 11:38:02 <paveljanik> jtimon: grab the one-liner from #5374, recreate removed file, put #error inside it somewhere and build again.
 413 2014-11-26 11:38:22 <paveljanik> jtimon: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5374/files
 414 2014-11-26 11:38:44 <jtimon> ok, maybe later I don't have much time right now
 415 2014-11-26 11:38:53 <paveljanik> ok
 416 2014-11-26 11:39:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: how about we have headers with the same filename, but different purpose?
 417 2014-11-26 11:39:57 <Luke-Jr> like Linux does
 418 2014-11-26 11:40:33 <Luke-Jr> :P
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 420 2014-11-26 11:43:28 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: does linux do that?
 421 2014-11-26 11:44:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's worse than I make it sound; they have the same installed-path in /usr/include too XD
 422 2014-11-26 11:44:34 <Luke-Jr> /usr/include/linux/i2c-dev.h has two flavours
 423 2014-11-26 11:44:40 <Luke-Jr> one for kernel code, and one for userspace
 424 2014-11-26 11:45:19 <wumpus> that can indeed be kind of confusing, they didn't need to use the same name
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 428 2014-11-26 11:49:52 <wumpus> paveljanik: strange, I can't reproduce the issue at all anymore. I created a src/bitcoin-config.h with #error and it doesn't get included not even without your patch. I'm happy that jtimon can confirm it really happened and I didn't imagine it :)
 429 2014-11-26 11:50:13 <paveljanik> wumpus: strange - see my last comment in #5374
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 432 2014-11-26 11:50:19 <paveljanik> I can recreate it.
 433 2014-11-26 11:50:49 <paveljanik> recompiling crypto/...
 434 2014-11-26 11:50:56 <paveljanik> try make clean.
 435 2014-11-26 11:51:30 * paveljanik should finally add ccache to his builds
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 437 2014-11-26 11:52:29 <jtimon> wumpus also "make clean; ./autogen.sh; ./configure" didn't help, I had to remove the file as you said
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 439 2014-11-26 11:53:25 <paveljanik> make clean doesn't probably remove src/bitcoin-config.h
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 441 2014-11-26 11:53:51 <wumpus> paveljanik: it doesn't remove files it doesn't know about
 442 2014-11-26 11:54:17 <paveljanik> yes. I didn't said it is wrong :-)
 443 2014-11-26 11:54:28 <Luke-Jr> git clean can do it, but .. git clean is scary
 444 2014-11-26 11:54:41 <Luke-Jr> it will gladly delete everything not in git
 445 2014-11-26 11:54:48 <Luke-Jr> including your important todo file
 446 2014-11-26 11:55:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: for 0.11 we should really have out-of-tree builds working
 447 2014-11-26 11:55:25 <Luke-Jr> we don't? :/
 448 2014-11-26 11:55:41 <wumpus> no, due to leveldb
 449 2014-11-26 11:55:45 <Luke-Jr> oh right
 450 2014-11-26 11:55:51 <Luke-Jr> well, that's easily solved <.<
 451 2014-11-26 11:56:17 <wumpus> nothing with this build system is easy
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 453 2014-11-26 11:56:29 <Luke-Jr> no, I mean by not embedding dependencies
 454 2014-11-26 11:56:50 <Luke-Jr> (an alternative probably more accepted is to autotools leveldb)
 455 2014-11-26 11:57:11 <wumpus> sigh, not that discussion again
 456 2014-11-26 11:58:08 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: actually, it might seriously be worth revisiting after 0.10 - consider that we have a full package manager to get all our other deps now
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 484 2014-11-26 12:46:38 <jonasschnelli> building the master on OSX 10.10. Getting: /usr/include/string.h:133:10: error: declaration of 'strnlen' has a different language linkage
 485 2014-11-26 12:46:51 <jonasschnelli> size_t   strnlen(const char *, size_t) __OSX_AVAILABLE_STARTING(__MAC_10_7, __IPHONE_4_3);
 486 2014-11-26 12:46:51 <jonasschnelli>          ^
 487 2014-11-26 12:46:51 <jonasschnelli> ./compat.h:92:8: note: previous declaration is here
 488 2014-11-26 12:46:51 <jonasschnelli> size_t strnlen( const char *start, size_t max_len);
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 491 2014-11-26 12:47:24 <wumpus> jonasschnelli:  please re-run autogen.sh and configure
 492 2014-11-26 12:47:43 <jonasschnelli> trying right now....
 493 2014-11-26 12:48:31 <jonasschnelli> okay. a autoreconf -i / configure solved the issue. Thanks wumpus.
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 516 2014-11-26 13:26:35 <sipa> gavinandresen: if we believe we should keep enough blocks around to reorg X blocks back when pruned, this change means we can't prune beyond X-100
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 537 2014-11-26 13:46:12 <jonasschnelli> rpc unit-test: would it be worth to include a http client library (like libcurl) to kosher test the rpc/rest interface? currently the http-layer gets skipped.
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 539 2014-11-26 13:47:15 <jonasschnelli> alternatively a small incomplete http client class would also do the job
 540 2014-11-26 13:47:36 <sipa> i'm not so worried about dependencies for the python tests
 541 2014-11-26 13:47:41 <sipa> but maybe others have more opinions
 542 2014-11-26 13:49:25 <jonasschnelli> hmm... i was thinking around the c++ boost unit tests. I overlooked the python based utest. Let me dive in there...
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 565 2014-11-26 14:07:57 <wumpus> yes please use a python-based test for that
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 568 2014-11-26 14:10:51 <jonasschnelli> wumpus, Okay. I just started to play around with the py test framework in /qa/pull-tester
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 632 2014-11-26 15:24:35 <michagogo> Erm, new commits on the 0.9.3 branch? o_O
 633 2014-11-26 15:25:16 <wumpus> in principle we have all the functionality required for connecting to the RPC in the C++ code, no need for external dependencies, but it's better to use python for functional tests than try to stuff it in unit tests
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 635 2014-11-26 15:25:37 <wumpus> michagogo: pre-0.9.4
 636 2014-11-26 15:25:45 <michagogo> Hm.
 637 2014-11-26 15:25:50 <wumpus> michagogo: use the v0.9.3 tag if you want to build 0.9.3
 638 2014-11-26 15:26:01 * michagogo would have expected a new branch, or an 0.9 branch...
 639 2014-11-26 15:26:27 <wumpus> sigh, yes that's possible too...
 640 2014-11-26 15:26:57 <michagogo> Not saying you should do that, just seemed weird to me
 641 2014-11-26 15:27:11 <wumpus> agree that it should have been a 0.9 branch, instead of branching from branches for every minor release, let's do that for 0.10
 642 2014-11-26 15:27:49 <michagogo> Yeah, that makes sense
 643 2014-11-26 15:28:08 <michagogo> (I assume it's not very likely to ever have 2 minor releases in the works at the same time?)
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 645 2014-11-26 15:29:49 <wumpus> that never happens, and if it does, it's still possible to create branches for them
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 647 2014-11-26 15:30:38 <wumpus> that reminds me, we should remove branches for in-between minor versions
 648 2014-11-26 15:31:02 <wumpus> makes no sense to still have a 0.9.0 tag, we have v0.9.0 tag for that
 649 2014-11-26 15:31:15 <wumpus> eh.. first tag should be branch ofc
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 654 2014-11-26 15:32:50 <michagogo> Is 0.9.0 HEAD identical to v0.9.0?
 655 2014-11-26 15:33:24 hashtag has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 656 2014-11-26 15:33:28 <wumpus> likely not
 657 2014-11-26 15:33:37 <wumpus> 0.9.0 HEAD is pre-0.9.1
 658 2014-11-26 15:34:54 <wumpus> (for the same reason that we've committed pre-0.9.4 commits to the 0.9.3 branch, it may be weird but it is consistent :-)
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 660 2014-11-26 15:35:57 <michagogo> erm, so at what point did 0.9.1 branch off?
 661 2014-11-26 15:36:04 <michagogo> At the rc1 tag?
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 663 2014-11-26 15:36:08 <wumpus> I don't know that by heart.
 664 2014-11-26 15:36:12 <wumpus> use the source, luke
 665 2014-11-26 15:37:09 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0.9.0...v0.9.0
 666 2014-11-26 15:37:17 <michagogo> There isn't anything to compare.
 667 2014-11-26 15:37:17 <michagogo> 0.9.0 is up to date with all commits from v0.9.0.
 668 2014-11-26 15:37:18 <wumpus> the historical reason for doing it this way is that people tended to post all over reddit and the bt forums as soon as they saw a new version appear
 669 2014-11-26 15:37:42 <michagogo> oh, wait
 670 2014-11-26 15:37:48 <michagogo> There isn't anything to compare.
 671 2014-11-26 15:37:48 <michagogo> 0.9.1 and v0.9.1 are identical.
 672 2014-11-26 15:38:09 <wumpus> anyhow, creating a 0.10 branch makes more sense, there is no need for branches for minor versions
 673 2014-11-26 15:38:11 <michagogo> I was doing it wrong
 674 2014-11-26 15:38:19 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.9.0...0.9.0
 675 2014-11-26 15:39:02 hashtag has joined
 676 2014-11-26 15:39:29 derbumi_ has joined
 677 2014-11-26 15:41:00 <jonasschnelli> just run a memory leak check on bitcoind, is that normal that libdb_cxx-4.8.dylib is leaking all over?
 678 2014-11-26 15:43:14 derbumi_ has quit (Client Quit)
 679 2014-11-26 15:43:45 <wumpus> I don't think that's normal
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 684 2014-11-26 15:46:51 <michagogo> What's our OS X minimum version?
 685 2014-11-26 15:47:17 <wumpus> 10.6 I guess
 686 2014-11-26 15:47:22 <sipa> 10.7 for building, 10.6 for running, afaik
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 689 2014-11-26 15:48:15 <michagogo> I thought that OS X ditched 32-bit a while back
 690 2014-11-26 15:48:36 <michagogo> I checked, and it turns out that 10.6 was the last version to support it
 691 2014-11-26 15:48:46 <sipa> we only do 64-bit builds anymore, afaik
 692 2014-11-26 15:48:56 <wumpus> we don't have 32-bit binaries for MacOSX on gitian, but there's no reason why you couldn't build it for 32 bit
 693 2014-11-26 15:48:56 <sipa> so even on 10.6, i expect it to only work on 64-bit systems
 694 2014-11-26 15:49:03 <michagogo> Oh, do we?
 695 2014-11-26 15:49:13 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5371 seemed to suggest otherwise
 696 2014-11-26 15:49:18 derbumi_ has joined
 697 2014-11-26 15:49:43 <sipa> the dmg is the installer, but i still think it only contains a 64-bit binary
 698 2014-11-26 15:49:51 <wumpus> ... no osx32 there 
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 700 2014-11-26 15:49:59 <michagogo> wait
 701 2014-11-26 15:50:01 <michagogo> ignore me
 702 2014-11-26 15:50:05 <wumpus> dmg is the gui, .tar.gz is the bitcoind etc
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 704 2014-11-26 15:50:09 <michagogo> I saw osx and osx64
 705 2014-11-26 15:50:13 <sipa> cfields-away: any reason why the dmg for osx is called 'osx', while the tgz in is called 'osx64' ?
 706 2014-11-26 15:50:17 <michagogo> and missed the ext... derp
 707 2014-11-26 15:50:46 <wumpus> the .tar.gz is new, we never used to have that for macosx, but some people requested it
 708 2014-11-26 15:50:56 <michagogo> Does the tgz include the GUI too?
 709 2014-11-26 15:51:01 <wumpus> no clue
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 711 2014-11-26 15:51:10 <michagogo> (is it the same full package as the linux tgzs and the win zips?)
 712 2014-11-26 15:51:21 <wumpus> I suggest building it and trying
 713 2014-11-26 15:51:22 <sipa> try it!
 714 2014-11-26 15:51:38 <sipa> i'll set up a gitian env soon again as well
 715 2014-11-26 15:51:41 <michagogo> I guess I should...
 716 2014-11-26 15:51:46 <sipa> i believe 24 GB of ram should suffice
 717 2014-11-26 15:51:50 <michagogo> I'm not 100% sure what state my ubuntu vm is in atm
 718 2014-11-26 15:52:11 <michagogo> Also, I never got around to testing the deps builder, so that'll be new too
 719 2014-11-26 15:52:16 <wumpus> even my measly 8GB is easily enough
 720 2014-11-26 15:52:23 <sipa> the depends system *just works*
 721 2014-11-26 15:52:33 <michagogo> sipa: yeah, I meant as it was being worked on
 722 2014-11-26 15:52:43 <sipa> i mean: i can build bitcoind for ARM...
 723 2014-11-26 15:52:48 <michagogo> (sorry, cfields-away!)
 724 2014-11-26 15:52:53 <sipa> without any weird installation or hackery
 725 2014-11-26 15:53:16 <wumpus> indeed, cross compile for other platforms and architectures is now easy
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 727 2014-11-26 15:54:04 <hearn> gavinandresen: do you remember when the cent rule was dropped?
 728 2014-11-26 15:54:16 <hearn> i.e. fee requires special logic when any output is <1 btcent
 729 2014-11-26 15:55:48 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 730 2014-11-26 15:56:22 <sipa> hearn: merged october 19th 2013
 731 2014-11-26 15:56:23 <michagogo> hearn: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4305?
 732 2014-11-26 15:56:31 <paveljanik> We're sorry -- the Sourceforge site is currently in Disaster Recovery mode
 733 2014-11-26 15:56:32 <michagogo> Oh, wait
 734 2014-11-26 15:56:33 <paveljanik> 8)
 735 2014-11-26 15:56:42 <wumpus> hey he was asking gavinandresen specifically :p
 736 2014-11-26 15:56:47 <sipa> paveljanik: oh no, DRM!
 737 2014-11-26 15:56:50 <hearn> michagogo: that was the gui level change?
 738 2014-11-26 15:57:02 <michagogo> hearn: the coin-control change, I think
 739 2014-11-26 15:57:04 <hearn> sipa: ah ok, so it's long since dead
 740 2014-11-26 15:57:07 <tdlfbx> What is the logic behind accepting blocks up to 2 hours in the future?  Why not reject all blocks in the future?
 741 2014-11-26 15:57:08 <sipa> hearn: #3008
 742 2014-11-26 15:57:11 <hearn> michagogo: i'm talking about the fee rule
 743 2014-11-26 15:57:13 <hearn> thanks sipa
 744 2014-11-26 15:57:15 <michagogo> As in, if you left it autoselecting, I think it would not use the rule
 745 2014-11-26 15:57:16 <sipa> tdlfbx: clocks are not identical
 746 2014-11-26 15:57:22 <wumpus> tdlfbx: because the future is not evenly distributed!
 747 2014-11-26 15:57:39 <michagogo> PR was https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3008
 748 2014-11-26 15:57:39 <tdlfbx> So I'd reject everything that disagrees with my clock...until it does.
 749 2014-11-26 15:57:41 derbumi_ has joined
 750 2014-11-26 15:57:45 <tdlfbx> Why is that a problem?
 751 2014-11-26 15:57:58 <michagogo> tdlfbx: because what if you clock is an hour behind
 752 2014-11-26 15:58:10 <tdlfbx> Then you're an idiot and your node will remain out of sync.
 753 2014-11-26 15:58:11 <sipa> the 2 hour window is likely overkill (iirc, satoshi wanted to account for incorrect timezone/dst settings), but it doesn't hurt compared to the 2 week retarget period
 754 2014-11-26 15:58:20 pewpsewp has joined
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 756 2014-11-26 15:59:00 <tdlfbx> If there were hard timing limits, wouldn't this force node operators to use a reasonable clock source?
 757 2014-11-26 15:59:03 <michagogo> hearn: the CENT removal was in v0.9.0
 758 2014-11-26 15:59:13 <michagogo> tdlfbx: well, who decides what the right clock is?
 759 2014-11-26 15:59:15 <sipa> tdlfbx: if you allow *zero* seconds in the future, and assuming your clock is average in term of time offset, half the network will still reject your blocks
 760 2014-11-26 15:59:21 <michagogo> There *is* a hard timing limit
 761 2014-11-26 15:59:23 <michagogo> it's 2 hours
 762 2014-11-26 15:59:31 <sipa> tdlfbx: so you need some grace window
 763 2014-11-26 15:59:32 <wumpus> michagogo: hah
 764 2014-11-26 15:59:35 <tdlfbx> No one decides, but this is a problem solved by others and there's an obvious "right" answer.
 765 2014-11-26 15:59:44 <tdlfbx> e.g. NTP, GPS, etc.
 766 2014-11-26 15:59:44 <michagogo> tdlfbx: like sipa says, maybe it's overkill
 767 2014-11-26 15:59:45 <sipa> tdlfbx: so what window would be acceptable?
 768 2014-11-26 15:59:47 <michagogo> But it's harmless
 769 2014-11-26 15:59:54 <sipa> i believe 1 minute would be fine
 770 2014-11-26 16:00:00 <sipa> but 2 hours does not hurt
 771 2014-11-26 16:00:09 <tdlfbx> Why not 1 second?
 772 2014-11-26 16:00:09 <michagogo> Meh, a minute is pushing it IMO
 773 2014-11-26 16:00:29 Subo1977_ has joined
 774 2014-11-26 16:00:32 <tdlfbx> We can measure ping time, we can compare clocks and correct for it.  NTP does this and achieves sub-second resolution.
 775 2014-11-26 16:00:39 <michagogo> ...aaaand I started typing what I thought the safe minimum should be
 776 2014-11-26 16:00:44 <sipa> tdlfbx: and what would we gain?
 777 2014-11-26 16:00:49 <wumpus> tdlfbx: why require a clock to be synced to one second, when not necessary? it puts extra requirements on the users for no gain
 778 2014-11-26 16:00:52 <sipa> yes, maybe 1 second is fine
 779 2014-11-26 16:00:56 <sipa> but why bother?
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 781 2014-11-26 16:00:58 <wumpus> fine for what?
 782 2014-11-26 16:01:02 <wumpus> why?
 783 2014-11-26 16:01:08 <michagogo> ...and then stopped when I realized that this is exactly the conversation that doesn't need to happen :P
 784 2014-11-26 16:01:23 <michagogo> And, no, I would argue that one second isn't fine
 785 2014-11-26 16:01:29 <tdlfbx> I was looking at timewarp attacks.  They're enabled by allowing people with stupid clocks to participate.
 786 2014-11-26 16:01:43 <michagogo> If you're connected to the ipv4/6 internet through a wired connection, fine
 787 2014-11-26 16:01:46 <wumpus> it would be like arguing that people should have at least 16GB of memory and a 16 core computer to run a node, just because it's possible
 788 2014-11-26 16:01:52 <sipa> the timewarp attack could be fixed without imposing such strict timing constraints
 789 2014-11-26 16:01:53 <michagogo> What happens if you're using tor?
 790 2014-11-26 16:01:59 <michagogo> Or a sattelite connection?
 791 2014-11-26 16:02:01 <sipa> if it was an actual problem
 792 2014-11-26 16:02:03 <michagogo> Satellite*
 793 2014-11-26 16:02:09 <michagogo> Or IPoAC?
 794 2014-11-26 16:02:11 <tdlfbx> There have been actual timewarp attacks against alts.
 795 2014-11-26 16:02:20 <sipa> ok, try it against bitcoin
 796 2014-11-26 16:02:22 <michagogo> tdlfbx: so complain to them
 797 2014-11-26 16:02:27 <tdlfbx> ;-)
 798 2014-11-26 16:02:44 <sipa> i did say that 2 hours is not a problem compared to the normal retarget period of 2 weeks
 799 2014-11-26 16:02:54 <michagogo> I would say that what matters is that the window be a very small fraction of the retarget window
 800 2014-11-26 16:03:06 <tdlfbx> Well throwing an arbitrary number at the problem like 2 hours does not solve it, it just changes the timescale of an attack.
 801 2014-11-26 16:03:06 <sipa> if your retarget period is much less, you may require much lower tolerance on the tinme window
 802 2014-11-26 16:03:12 <michagogo> If you reduce the window for some reason, you should require stricter times
 803 2014-11-26 16:03:23 <sipa> tdlfbx: agree
 804 2014-11-26 16:03:38 <sipa> but changing rules is much harder than leaving them, especially in a consensus system
 805 2014-11-26 16:03:50 chmod755 has joined
 806 2014-11-26 16:04:00 <michagogo> If it were being designed now, there would doubtless be a huge amount of bikeshedding over this
 807 2014-11-26 16:04:01 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 808 2014-11-26 16:04:13 <michagogo> As well as many other parts of the system, for that matter
 809 2014-11-26 16:04:15 * tdlfbx is going to have to look up "bikeshedding"
 810 2014-11-26 16:04:25 <michagogo> Fortunately, we're using the original, Bitcoin
 811 2014-11-26 16:04:43 <sipa> tdlfbx: pointless discussion going in circles, where everyone has very strong opinions, but nobody works towards a solution
 812 2014-11-26 16:04:43 <michagogo> With the parameters defined by "What Satoshi was first thinking"
 813 2014-11-26 16:04:59 <michagogo> sipa: hm, interesting
 814 2014-11-26 16:05:47 <sipa> tdlfbx: it derives from a story about 3 teams... one had to design a rocket, one had to design the cabin inside or something, and a third had to decide on the color of the bikeshed outside the workplace; each of the 3 teams took the same amount of time to reach a decision
 815 2014-11-26 16:05:59 <michagogo> Not the definition I think of... More like "what color to paint the bike shed at a nuclear facility", lots of discussion over a very minor issue that doesn't necessarily have one correct answer
 816 2014-11-26 16:06:09 <sipa> yeah, maybe
 817 2014-11-26 16:06:23 <wumpus> michagogo: sometimes it's good that someone just comes up with some numbers and it's accepted by default that works, instead of arguing about every little thing and never making progress
 818 2014-11-26 16:06:29 <michagogo> Right.
 819 2014-11-26 16:06:42 <michagogo> 17:55:53 <michagogo> Fortunately, we're using the original, Bitcoin 17:56:12 <michagogo> With the parameters defined by "What Satoshi was first thinking"
 820 2014-11-26 16:06:48 <tdlfbx> Well I think it's rather interesting.  Because an accurate timestamping mechanism can be used as a consensus mechanism.  So dumping timestamping altogether seems odd in bitcoin, which has a consensus mechanism.
 821 2014-11-26 16:07:00 erasmospunk has joined
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 823 2014-11-26 16:07:05 <michagogo> uh, what?
 824 2014-11-26 16:07:09 <tdlfbx> One consensus mechanism can be used to create another.
 825 2014-11-26 16:07:15 <sipa> tdlfbx: the accuracy of bitcoin as a timestamping mechanism is in the same order of magnitude anyway
 826 2014-11-26 16:07:20 <sipa> if you need a few blocks of confirmation
 827 2014-11-26 16:07:27 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 828 2014-11-26 16:07:34 imfaust has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 829 2014-11-26 16:07:45 <sipa> and it's not 'dumping' it; just it's reducing its accuracy
 830 2014-11-26 16:08:14 <tdlfbx> Well it's attempting to make timestamps irrelevant.  You might as well not include timestamps at all in block headers.
 831 2014-11-26 16:08:19 <michagogo> Uh, no...
 832 2014-11-26 16:08:22 <michagogo> Not at all
 833 2014-11-26 16:08:38 <sipa> tdlfbx: we need the timestamps for retargetting
 834 2014-11-26 16:08:51 Belxjander has joined
 835 2014-11-26 16:09:01 <wumpus> for most purposes (say, if you want to prove that a document existed) a timestamp within two hours is easily accurate enough
 836 2014-11-26 16:09:09 <tdlfbx> sipa: true.
 837 2014-11-26 16:09:17 <sipa> that's the only reason they are there
 838 2014-11-26 16:09:56 <tdlfbx> Hmmm....hmmm...
 839 2014-11-26 16:10:02 <wumpus> anyhow there is no point in arguing this
 840 2014-11-26 16:11:00 benrcole has joined
 841 2014-11-26 16:11:50 <tdlfbx> There's a lot of point.  I learned something wumpus.  :-P
 842 2014-11-26 16:12:16 <sipa> cool!
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 845 2014-11-26 16:13:17 <wumpus> tdlfbx: hah, ok yes then there is a point
 846 2014-11-26 16:13:38 <tdlfbx> I know there are lot of bikeshed questions here.  And now I know what bikeshedding is.  :-P
 847 2014-11-26 16:13:55 <tdlfbx> But I'm frustrated with the large number of arbitrary numbers in the bitcoin code, and wonder if they can be optimized...
 848 2014-11-26 16:14:14 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 849 2014-11-26 16:14:41 <sipa> well a lot of them are part of consensus rules, and many others do affect the ability to converge in some indirect way
 850 2014-11-26 16:15:17 <wumpus> in many cases consensus hinges on those being the same for the entire network, there is not much chance to change them
 851 2014-11-26 16:15:21 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 852 2014-11-26 16:15:43 <tdlfbx> Of course.
 853 2014-11-26 16:16:26 <wumpus> that doesn't apply to all numbers though, for example the smartfee changes in 0.10 are an example of a number that used to be an arbitrary constant that is now dynamic
 854 2014-11-26 16:17:13 <tdlfbx> Ooooh!  Are fees going to become dyanmic?!?!
 855 2014-11-26 16:17:20 <michagogo> well
 856 2014-11-26 16:17:29 <michagogo> Fees have never been a consensus thing
 857 2014-11-26 16:17:32 <sipa> fees have always been dynamic
 858 2014-11-26 16:17:35 <michagogo> So it's always been possible
 859 2014-11-26 16:17:46 <sipa> you could always choose what fee to use yourself
 860 2014-11-26 16:17:51 <michagogo> And in some ways they always have been dynamic
 861 2014-11-26 16:17:57 Techguy305 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 862 2014-11-26 16:18:04 <michagogo> But now smarter fee estimation is entering Bitcoin Core
 863 2014-11-26 16:18:08 <sipa> but the client now tries to measure what fees are typical on the network
 864 2014-11-26 16:18:28 <tdlfbx> Great!!! https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/floating-fees-for-0-10/
 865 2014-11-26 16:18:32 AaronvanW has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 866 2014-11-26 16:18:36 <tdlfbx> i hadn't seen this before, but it's a good idea.
 867 2014-11-26 16:21:15 <wumpus> michagogo: of course it's always been possible, sigh, I just mean that it is happening that arbitrary numbers are being replaced by smarter code
 868 2014-11-26 16:21:28 <wumpus> and I've already said that that's not possible for the consensus code
 869 2014-11-26 16:21:40 benrcole has joined
 870 2014-11-26 16:21:44 <michagogo> wumpus: I was talking to tdlfbx
 871 2014-11-26 16:22:36 <tdlfbx> If nodes rejected blocks in the future, wouldn't that mean they'd just follow the main chain with some delay given by their local clock offset?  They'd be unable to mine, but would it actually destroy consensus?
 872 2014-11-26 16:23:58 <michagogo> tdlfbx: well, you'd end up on a delay, yes
 873 2014-11-26 16:24:10 <tdlfbx> A node with a clock in the future would be able to mine, but no one would accept his mined blocks.
 874 2014-11-26 16:24:12 <michagogo> And you may end up on the wrong chain, if you see one mined with a past timestamp
 875 2014-11-26 16:24:50 Guest94202 has joined
 876 2014-11-26 16:25:16 <tdlfbx> michagogo: Yes you may end up on the wrong chain, but the rest of the network would have been partially on that wrong chain before, and discarded it.  So eventually you'd see that update too.
 877 2014-11-26 16:25:43 simondlr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 878 2014-11-26 16:25:56 <michagogo> Well, no, you could see a block that forked off 11 blocks ago
 879 2014-11-26 16:26:04 <michagogo> But yeah, eventually you'd probably be fine
 880 2014-11-26 16:26:14 <tdlfbx> Oh the 11 block thing...what was that...
 881 2014-11-26 16:26:31 <michagogo> well, in this case it's just 2 hours divided into block times
 882 2014-11-26 16:26:48 <michagogo> But that's in the other direction
 883 2014-11-26 16:27:03 <michagogo> A block must be timestamped greater than the median timestamp of the past 11 blocks
 884 2014-11-26 16:27:11 <tdlfbx> Ah yes, thanks.
 885 2014-11-26 16:27:21 <michagogo> That rule forces the overall blockchain timestamps to move forward
 886 2014-11-26 16:27:55 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 887 2014-11-26 16:29:58 <tdlfbx> This rule also allows timestamps to be non-monotonic, and thus an attack should exist where I roll my clock <2 hours forward.
 888 2014-11-26 16:30:12 <michagogo> How so?
 889 2014-11-26 16:30:43 <tdlfbx> The timestamps of sequential blocks don't have to monotonically increase, using the 11-block-median rule.
 890 2014-11-26 16:30:52 <michagogo> Right, that's the purpose of that rule
 891 2014-11-26 16:31:15 <tdlfbx> Wait, you *want* later blocks to have timestamps before previous blocks sometimes?
 892 2014-11-26 16:31:26 <michagogo> Yes
 893 2014-11-26 16:31:29 <tdlfbx> Why?
 894 2014-11-26 16:31:34 <sipa> because it's inevitable
 895 2014-11-26 16:31:48 <sipa> (but not as much as 2 hours)
 896 2014-11-26 16:31:48 <michagogo> Because without enforcing clock identicality, that is going to happen
 897 2014-11-26 16:32:22 <sipa> otherwise if someone mines a block exactly at the limit, you're stuck
 898 2014-11-26 16:32:33 <michagogo> Well,
 899 2014-11-26 16:32:39 <michagogo> what's the resolution? Seconds?
 900 2014-11-26 16:32:40 <tdlfbx> sipa: can you elaborate?  Which limit?
 901 2014-11-26 16:32:47 <michagogo> tdlfbx: now+2hours
 902 2014-11-26 16:33:19 <sipa> tdlfbx: if the limit is 2 hours in the future, but require timestamps to be monotonic, you have 0 wiggle room left if someone mines a block with a timestamp 2 hours in the future
 903 2014-11-26 16:33:37 <sipa> if you make the limit *now*, it becomes even worse
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 905 2014-11-26 16:33:48 <michagogo> I mean, you're only stuck for a second
 906 2014-11-26 16:33:51 <michagogo> But still
 907 2014-11-26 16:34:23 <sipa> again, this window could be significantly reduced, and perhaps be made small enough that it doesn't matter anymore
 908 2014-11-26 16:34:33 <sipa> but the current infrastructure out there relies on it being there
 909 2014-11-26 16:34:41 <tdlfbx> Why would I ever want to include a block mined in the future?
 910 2014-11-26 16:34:49 <sipa> timestamps are used as nonce
 911 2014-11-26 16:35:01 <michagogo> tdlfbx: your clock could be a bit behind
 912 2014-11-26 16:35:09 <michagogo> Or a miner could be a bit ahead
 913 2014-11-26 16:35:59 <tdlfbx> This is what I mean by one consensus mechanism used to create another.  If my clock disagrees with the majority of the network, I won't be able to mine.  Removing or shortening the 2-hour window incentivizes accurate clocks.
 914 2014-11-26 16:36:21 <sipa> i don't see what you accomplish by doing that
 915 2014-11-26 16:36:29 <sipa> it incentives accurate clocks... for what?
 916 2014-11-26 16:36:38 <sipa> if i want an accurate clock, i'll use ntp
 917 2014-11-26 16:36:40 <tdlfbx> To prevent time-based attacks.
 918 2014-11-26 16:36:56 <sipa> time-based attacks can be completely fixed without constraining time
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 920 2014-11-26 16:37:16 <sipa> the timewarp attack is just due to using non-overlapping retarget periods
 921 2014-11-26 16:37:40 <tdlfbx> Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology
 922 2014-11-26 16:38:19 <tdlfbx> So let's say I mine a block with a timestamp 2 hours in the future, and I want to use it for a double-spend.
 923 2014-11-26 16:38:42 <sipa> ok?
 924 2014-11-26 16:38:42 <tdlfbx> After 6 confirmations, I have a 1-hour window to mine a second block that reverts my transaction in the first one I mined.
 925 2014-11-26 16:38:53 <sipa> ?
 926 2014-11-26 16:39:02 <sipa> what does the timestamp have to do with that?
 927 2014-11-26 16:39:16 <wumpus> transactions are interpreted in block order, not in time order
 928 2014-11-26 16:39:20 <tdlfbx> I was able to mine the first one 2 hours in the future because the network will accept it.  If we required accurate clocks I couldn't do that.
 929 2014-11-26 16:39:36 <sipa> it doesn't change your ability to pull of that attack one bit
 930 2014-11-26 16:39:44 <sipa> you need hashpower to do so, and nothing else
 931 2014-11-26 16:39:54 <tdlfbx> Yes, I see.
 932 2014-11-26 16:39:59 <michagogo> 18:30:11 <tdlfbx> After 6 confirmations, I have a 1-hour window to mine a second block that reverts my transaction in the first one I mined. <-- yeah, no.
 933 2014-11-26 16:40:09 <sipa> the only reason the timestamps are there is to compute the new difficulty
 934 2014-11-26 16:40:27 <sipa> yes there is one known attack which allows miners to game the difficulty, but it can be fixed without changing the timing constraints
 935 2014-11-26 16:40:43 <michagogo> Which attack?
 936 2014-11-26 16:40:45 <sipa> for actual consensus or acceptance of transactions, it is irrelevant
 937 2014-11-26 16:40:51 <sipa> timewrap
 938 2014-11-26 16:40:53 <sipa> *warp
 939 2014-11-26 16:40:56 <tdlfbx> So, essentially, as long as this 2-hour window is much less than the 2-week retarget window, we don't care.  It could be 1s too.
 940 2014-11-26 16:41:01 <michagogo> Oh, not in Bitcoin
 941 2014-11-26 16:41:08 <michagogo> tdlfbx: pretty much
 942 2014-11-26 16:41:14 <michagogo> Except that 1s would probably be too short
 943 2014-11-26 16:41:29 <tdlfbx> The only reason it's not 1s is some argument that node operators are idiots and can't set their clock correctly?
 944 2014-11-26 16:41:34 <michagogo> Well, no
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 946 2014-11-26 16:41:40 <michagogo> Consider higher latency
 947 2014-11-26 16:41:47 <michagogo> As I was saying earlier
 948 2014-11-26 16:41:54 <tdlfbx> That could be adjusted, as NTP does.
 949 2014-11-26 16:42:03 <wumpus> as said - 'node operators' includes a lot of people, artificially reducing the number of full nodes by making it harder to run them succesfully sounds like a bad strategy
 950 2014-11-26 16:42:12 <michagogo> +1
 951 2014-11-26 16:42:16 <wumpus> you're going in circles
 952 2014-11-26 16:42:51 <sipa> michagogo: higher latency is actually not a problem
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 954 2014-11-26 16:42:59 <tdlfbx> That's an odd argument.  Time is pretty important for finances.
 955 2014-11-26 16:43:11 <sipa> tdlfbx: so use a accurate time if you need it
 956 2014-11-26 16:43:19 <sipa> tdlfbx: bitcoin already cannot provide accurate timestamping
 957 2014-11-26 16:43:33 <sipa> so relying on bitcoin's timestamps for anything that needs more accuracy than ~hours is already impossible
 958 2014-11-26 16:43:52 <sipa> increasing the requirements of the system without improving the result doesn't make sense
 959 2014-11-26 16:43:52 <michagogo> And the thing is, requiring a completely accurate clock means everyone needs to precisely agree on the time
 960 2014-11-26 16:43:57 <michagogo> And who defines the current time?
 961 2014-11-26 16:44:21 <wumpus> at the limit you could not get more precision than the time between blocks
 962 2014-11-26 16:44:38 <wumpus> so more precision than say 10 minutes doesn't make sense
 963 2014-11-26 16:44:50 <tdlfbx> You guys keep arguing as though atomic clocks, GPS, NTP don't exist.  Accurate timekeeping is an old, solved problem.
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 965 2014-11-26 16:45:21 <wumpus> no, we're arguing as though it doesn't matter for bitcoin
 966 2014-11-26 16:45:25 <michagogo> tdlfbx: But then the operator of your NTP server gets the ability to kick you off the network by tweaking your time by a second
 967 2014-11-26 16:45:37 <tdlfbx> The only reason a clock would be off is if an attack is being executed, or error on the operator's part.
 968 2014-11-26 16:45:48 <tdlfbx> Why should I want to keep either around?
 969 2014-11-26 16:45:57 <wumpus> michagogo: yup, time warp by GPS spoofing ;)
 970 2014-11-26 16:46:07 <sipa> tdlfbx: accurate timekeeping is an old, solved problem in a *centralized* setting
 971 2014-11-26 16:46:17 <sipa> tdlfbx: in a decentralized system, there exists no 'true time'
 972 2014-11-26 16:46:25 <tdlfbx> Sure, but I can pick which centralization I use.  ;-)
 973 2014-11-26 16:46:32 <sipa> yes, so use one if you need it
 974 2014-11-26 16:46:35 <michagogo> Right
 975 2014-11-26 16:46:39 <sipa> bitcoin doesn't need one (or not an accurate one)
 976 2014-11-26 16:46:51 <sipa> forcing you to pick an accurate one results in 0 gain for bitcoin itself
 977 2014-11-26 16:46:54 <michagogo> But what you're suggesting would mean there would have to be one centralization that everyone uses
 978 2014-11-26 16:46:56 <sipa> and now i'm done with this discussion
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 980 2014-11-26 16:47:44 <helo> tdlfbx: #bitcoin for more
 981 2014-11-26 16:48:07 <tdlfbx> Thanks folks.
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1067 2014-11-26 19:04:26 <dgenr8> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4521
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1069 2014-11-26 19:06:25 <dgenr8> node's local clock is a valuable resource, and less fussing around with it would be nice
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1118 2014-11-26 19:50:27 <gmaxwell> tdlfbx: "wouldn't this force node operators to use a reasonable clock source" there _are_ not reasonable clock sources in wide use in the context of bitcoin. Every one of the automated clocks sources is centerally controlled, completely unauthenticated, and has been wrong by chance in recent memory with remarkable frequency.
1119 2014-11-26 19:51:05 <helo> just use the sun and stars, duh
1120 2014-11-26 19:51:13 * helo runs
1121 2014-11-26 19:51:42 <gmaxwell> yes, sure you can set the time with enough accuracy for bitcoin using an almanic, knowledge of your location, and observation of the sun. :P
1122 2014-11-26 19:51:52 <gmaxwell> but thats a bit user unfriendly. :P
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1125 2014-11-26 19:55:26 <gmaxwell> But forcing people to go around and use ntp on their hosts would only degrade the security of the bitcoin network, since public use of autheticated NTP is non-existant (there is only one publically advertised authenticed ntp server set, the one run by NIST, and to use it you have to send them snail mail to recieve a key). NTP is remarkably unskeptical about claims from peers and can be happily skewed totally off the mark by bogus ...
1126 2014-11-26 19:55:32 <gmaxwell> ... traffic.  I'd love to have some time to work on a time protocol that is robust against an adversarial network; but its a low priority, and bitcoin's time requirements are intentionally very humble.
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1128 2014-11-26 19:57:26 <tdlfbx> Define "bitcoin time" to be the average reported time from communicating nodes, and use it to reject blocks with bad timestamps.
1129 2014-11-26 19:58:14 <gmaxwell> tdlfbx: uhhh. In bitcoin we assume that your peers (perhaps all but one or two, or even all for a short period of time) are malicious.
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1132 2014-11-26 19:59:33 <gmaxwell> tdlfbx: a system that didn't would be immediately vulnerable to sybil attacks. E.g. I spin up a million 'nodes' using a botnet, and as you connect to my nodes they claim the maximum far in the future (or past) time that you'll accept, and continue to do so to push your time way out.
1133 2014-11-26 20:00:13 <tdlfbx> true.
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1135 2014-11-26 20:01:20 <tdlfbx> OTOH, does that matter?  As long as it's monotonic...
1136 2014-11-26 20:02:08 <gmaxwell> yes it matters (uh and wtf. monotonic time is irrelevant in bitcoin, and you can make any stream of time claims monotoinc by simply running a max() operation over it)
1137 2014-11-26 20:02:11 <kadoban> tdlfbx: What would be the point, even if it could be done in a way that makes sense, which sounds dubious to say the least...
1138 2014-11-26 20:03:41 <gmaxwell> total freedom over the control of tiem can screw up the inflation schedule of bitcoin, they also can drive the interblock gaps down to the point where centeralized attacks enjoy a reorginization advantage. Or, alternatively, can freeze the system into useless ness...
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1143 2014-11-26 20:06:27 <tdlfbx> gmaxwell: I was thinking that time only be reported with PoW (e.g. in blocks) so Sybil attacks are 51% attacks.
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1145 2014-11-26 20:08:56 <gmaxwell> that isn't what you were saying. :) But okay, what you should understand with bitcoin is that majority hashpower attacks are less of a threat because the majority hashpower is so throughly confined in what it can do. Letting miners control your clock is isomorphic to not having a timestamp in block headers at all and just letting the miners decide on the blockrate. This may well unhinge their incentives; since they would share a common ...
1146 2014-11-26 20:09:02 <gmaxwell> ... interest in inflating the coin (coins go to them), or in centeralizing and then cracking the blockrate down so they'd enjoy an unfair share of the blocks.
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1165 2014-11-26 20:25:06 <dgenr8> i suspect any kind of internal time protocol, even the one we have, will turn out to be less accurate and less robust than nodes just taking responsibility for their clocks.
1166 2014-11-26 20:25:09 <dgenr8> it seems pretty hard to argue that a node using ntp is bad.  ntp is just a protocol and nodes would inevitably use a diversity of servers, or if they prefer, some other way of telling time
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1170 2014-11-26 20:25:49 <gmaxwell> it's very easy to argue that ntp is bad.
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1172 2014-11-26 20:26:13 <gmaxwell> a local network attacker (something we're otherwise very strong against) can partition the network if the node accepts its time from ntp.
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1175 2014-11-26 20:26:46 <gmaxwell> because ntp (as its deployed on the internet) is completely unauthenticated, and a local network attacker can make it report whatever they want.. you think you're talking to "a diversity of servers" but you're not.
1176 2014-11-26 20:27:15 <dgenr8> the diversity comes from 4000 nodes not being on the same local network
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1178 2014-11-26 20:27:40 <paveljanik> anyone ever used -printblockindex?
1179 2014-11-26 20:27:55 <sipa> as a node operator i don't really care about other nodes; i care about me not being attackable :)
1180 2014-11-26 20:28:03 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: small comfort to someone who lost thousands of other people's bitcoin that not _every_ bitcoin user was exploited.
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1184 2014-11-26 20:28:37 <gmaxwell> Also even not a local network attacker, common ntp configuration just uses DNS to resolve three distinct servers. An attacker that controls two of the three (e.g. via dns poisoning or from a sybil attack) can, again, freely set your time.
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1186 2014-11-26 20:29:43 <gmaxwell> (well, freely is suject to some slew limitatoins; but they're very permissive)
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1188 2014-11-26 20:31:43 <dgenr8> sipa: you are attackable today via the busted adjusted time protocol which can skew your clock no matter how carefully you set it
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1190 2014-11-26 20:32:54 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: the consequences being bad does not support one argument or another
1191 2014-11-26 20:33:48 <dgenr8> i'm just here to be a pain ... people are too chicken of you guys ;)
1192 2014-11-26 20:33:56 <tdlfbx> What if the 2-hour window was halved on a regular schedule, until it reached 1s?  Clock sources would diversify, secure authenticated ntp would be incentivized...
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1195 2014-11-26 20:34:41 <tdlfbx> sipa doesn't like me.
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1197 2014-11-26 20:35:32 <kadoban> tdlfbx: I'm still missing what that would actually accomplish. Have you responded to that? I know it came up more than a few times. What's the benefit?
1198 2014-11-26 20:35:39 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Sure what we have today need some improvement; but it's not outright busted. A node which is up, running, and correct is fine and own't be broken by an attack.
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1209 2014-11-26 20:37:00 <gmaxwell> tdlfbx: you should answer kadoban, but beyond that, what you're describing would further encourage centeralization of time since the best way to make your clocks agree is to get them from one source.
1210 2014-11-26 20:37:06 <tdlfbx> kadoban: I don't have evidence of an attack, but clearly the network agreeing on time is a problem.  Satoshi threw a 2 hour window at the problem in the hopes that it's long enough that he could ignore clock skew.  But it doesn't actually solve the problem.
1211 2014-11-26 20:37:28 <dgenr8> 1) with the current scheme, local clock is not trusted enough and 2) with the bug, the time stops adjusting
1212 2014-11-26 20:38:03 <gmaxwell> tdlfbx: What you're saying is not at all clear to me. Bitcoin does not need precise time.
1213 2014-11-26 20:38:07 <kadoban> tdlfbx: "clearly", except the smart people here don't seem at all concerned and above asked /you/ what any of these attempts would accomplish, meaning...it's probably not a problem, right?
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1215 2014-11-26 20:38:55 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: the need for adjustment at all mostly deals with timezone/dst fobbles (which are annoyingly common).
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1219 2014-11-26 20:40:39 <gmaxwell> That it doesn't continue has not been a problem. even a 1 PPM crystal takes years to slip out a couple hours.
1220 2014-11-26 20:40:54 <dgenr8> tdlfbx: imho the 2-hour window is working well and shows that the protocol can effectively leverage an unsynchronized local resource
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1223 2014-11-26 20:43:53 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: that adjustment doesn't continue makes node less resistant to sybil attack by ensuring that a node whose time is sybiled stays that way until restarted
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1226 2014-11-26 20:45:36 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: No, because it's removed the attackers freedom in choosing when to attack. This is especially important because profitably exploiting skewing node time generally requires doing it to two parties (a miner and one or more high value merchants).
1227 2014-11-26 20:46:17 c0rw is now known as away!~c0rw1n@129.66-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be|c0rw1n
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1230 2014-11-26 20:47:59 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: why isn't it the opposite? if attacker can peg one victim's clock at 70 min off, then he can leisurely concentrate on the next one
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1235 2014-11-26 20:51:04 op_null has joined
1236 2014-11-26 20:51:19 <op_null> paveljanik: I just tried -printblockindex and it sort of blew up
1237 2014-11-26 20:51:23 sipa has joined
1238 2014-11-26 20:51:43 <gmaxwell> op_null: how so? may have been broken by headers first.
1239 2014-11-26 20:52:09 <op_null> it works for most of the chain and then begins flooding invalid block offsets and timestamps
1240 2014-11-26 20:52:24 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Fair point, if the first move is to move a mergant 70 minutes in the past, driving a miner into the future can take time. This would still not be improved by updating more: since once you have filled up a nodes inbound slots you can simply wait.
1241 2014-11-26 20:52:25 <sipa> hmm, what?
1242 2014-11-26 20:52:33 <op_null> second. getting a log.
1243 2014-11-26 20:52:40 Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle
1244 2014-11-26 20:52:59 <Eagle[TM]> what's up with all the discussion about time? did i miss some exploit to fudge time easily (other than manipulating ntp with MiM)
1245 2014-11-26 20:53:20 <sipa> no
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1247 2014-11-26 20:53:30 <Eagle[TM]> good, thanks
1248 2014-11-26 20:54:27 <op_null> https://0bin.zertrin.org/paste/97285b35bdcf2c7b654717b1c28fe228e7de0a13#rOiycK1EzTn+E6jl0JpuuQdteJdDM5TNju0C779bDKI=
1249 2014-11-26 20:55:02 <dgenr8> to that point, if an attack hasn't been demonstrated in the lab and hasn't been seen in the wild, it's at least not obvious that making a change is less risky than not making it
1250 2014-11-26 20:55:13 <gmaxwell> Eagle[TM]: for no explicable reason kadoban showed up clamoring for trying to force nodes to have subsecond accurate time.
1251 2014-11-26 20:55:13 <op_null> this is from master ~1 day back
1252 2014-11-26 20:55:20 <tdlfbx> Eagle[TM]: I was just wondering about the various random time constants in bitcoin, that's all.
1253 2014-11-26 20:55:26 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I've demonstrated time skew attacks in the lab.
1254 2014-11-26 20:55:30 <kadoban> gmaxwell: ...not me
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1257 2014-11-26 20:55:52 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: and altcoins have been time attacked in the wild, mostly to disable mining.
1258 2014-11-26 20:56:07 <gmaxwell> (e.g. not to rob people but to selfishly collect more of the mining yourself)
1259 2014-11-26 20:56:22 <sipa> op_null: context?
1260 2014-11-26 20:56:43 c0rw is now known as timetravel!~c0rw1n@129.66-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be|c0rw1n
1261 2014-11-26 20:56:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats running -printblockindex
1262 2014-11-26 20:56:59 <op_null> sipa: http://178.62.133.216:8000/paste/26FAbBqL#E3NfYCztRhPu9g73RH4aDU5kRERpoWUybKlVq8qyU97
1263 2014-11-26 20:57:05 <gmaxwell> kadoban: sorry, I thought it was you that started it.
1264 2014-11-26 20:57:20 <gmaxwell> oh I see tdlfbx started it
1265 2014-11-26 20:57:22 <kadoban> No worries, nope I just piped up asking the original guy "why?" a few times.
1266 2014-11-26 20:57:37 <gmaxwell> "you all look the same" :P
1267 2014-11-26 20:57:44 <kadoban> ;)
1268 2014-11-26 20:57:56 <op_null> sipa: er yeah, that's -printblockindex on a node built from master on OSX. runs totally fine otherwise. thought you were asking for a longer log for context.
1269 2014-11-26 20:58:23 askmike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1270 2014-11-26 20:58:45 lclc is now known as lclc_bnc
1271 2014-11-26 20:58:56 <sipa> heh, i thought we removed that a long time ago
1272 2014-11-26 20:59:36 <op_null> I didn't even know it existed to be perfectly honest.
1273 2014-11-26 21:01:14 <op_null> I assume gmaxwell is right in assuming it's headers first (the dates make sense)
1274 2014-11-26 21:01:30 <sipa> i'll have a look later
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1278 2014-11-26 21:04:28 <paveljanik> -printblockindex is not documented, but still accepted. -printblocktree is the same and documented
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1283 2014-11-26 21:08:04 <michagogo> The discussion, IIRC, started off as a "this 2-hour window is breaking altcoins"
1284 2014-11-26 21:08:08 <michagogo> -_-
1285 2014-11-26 21:09:15 trixisowned has joined
1286 2014-11-26 21:09:22 Lightsword has joined
1287 2014-11-26 21:09:23 <tdlfbx> (09:48:35) tdlfbx: What is the logic behind accepting blocks up to 2 hours in the future?  Why not reject all blocks in the future?
1288 2014-11-26 21:09:50 trixisowned has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1289 2014-11-26 21:11:20 <Luke-Jr> to reduce the risk of issues due to your clock being wrong
1290 2014-11-26 21:11:34 SpicyShibe has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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1294 2014-11-26 21:13:35 trixisowned has joined
1295 2014-11-26 21:13:52 <tdlfbx> Just pointing out where the time discussion started...
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1316 2014-11-26 21:31:04 <op_null> tdlfbx: if you rejected all blocks in the future the whole network would skew backwards.
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1324 2014-11-26 21:43:30 <sipa> op_null: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5382
1325 2014-11-26 21:44:24 Trix has joined
1326 2014-11-26 21:44:50 <op_null> sipa: good solution 👌
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1328 2014-11-26 21:45:26 <op_null> oh I misread, I thought your "make it compatible with headers first" was just deleting it entirely
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1334 2014-11-26 21:51:56 <earlz> So, if you are a mining pool, is it possible to send 0-coin outputs?
1335 2014-11-26 21:52:01 Trix is now known as trixisowned
1336 2014-11-26 21:53:27 <op_null> not that you "send" outputs, but yes. 0 value outs are valid.
1337 2014-11-26 21:53:42 <op_null> not standard, but valid.
1338 2014-11-26 21:56:59 <earlz> why would someone do that?
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1341 2014-11-26 21:58:45 <earlz> what I'm seeing on this altcoin (yea, haven't had a chance to download testnet yet on satellite connection) is like a mining pool that send a single 0-coin output when doing payouts
1342 2014-11-26 21:58:55 <earlz> the output is non-standard and uses op_return even
1343 2014-11-26 21:59:05 <earlz> just seems odd
1344 2014-11-26 21:59:35 <op_null> that's p2pool.
1345 2014-11-26 21:59:40 eristisk has joined
1346 2014-11-26 21:59:58 <op_null> it uses them for some part of it's internal block chain.
1347 2014-11-26 22:00:08 <earlz> ahh weird
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1349 2014-11-26 22:00:20 <earlz> I need to dig into how p2pool works more
1350 2014-11-26 22:00:43 <earlz> does p2pool also commonly use pubkey (rather than pubkeyhash) ?
1351 2014-11-26 22:00:46 MagicFab_ has joined
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1353 2014-11-26 22:00:46 MagicFab_ has joined
1354 2014-11-26 22:01:22 <op_null> I don't believe so. I'm not aware of any modern software using pay to pubkey.
1355 2014-11-26 22:02:11 <michagogo> sipa: looks like travis is unhappy
1356 2014-11-26 22:02:13 <earlz> well, the transactions are from like january 2014
1357 2014-11-26 22:02:27 <gmaxwell> old versions of p2pool could use whatever scriptpubkey you wanted.... current versions constrain it.
1358 2014-11-26 22:02:29 <earlz> ugh really wish I had a better connection to download testnet
1359 2014-11-26 22:02:36 <earlz> I bet there is some really fun stuff there
1360 2014-11-26 22:03:35 <gmaxwell> How bad is your connection? bitcoin testnet is only IIRC about 2gb.
1361 2014-11-26 22:03:39 <michagogo> Fails to build, even
1362 2014-11-26 22:04:29 <earlz> 0.38mbit/s
1363 2014-11-26 22:04:47 <earlz> 1.5 second ping times
1364 2014-11-26 22:04:49 Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle
1365 2014-11-26 22:04:51 <earlz> someone send fiber
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1368 2014-11-26 22:06:46 upgradeadvice_ has joined
1369 2014-11-26 22:07:12 <earlz> I've built a toy I've been playing with that basically takes all the raw data from getblock and getrawtransaction txid 1, and shoves it into a postgresql database. really cool for providing some hard to find info
1370 2014-11-26 22:07:34 b_lumenkraft has quit (Quit: b_lumenkraft)
1371 2014-11-26 22:07:49 <op_null> that's.. you're going to struggle scaling that.
1372 2014-11-26 22:07:55 <sipa> isn't that pretty much what abe/insight/toshi/... already do (i've never used any of those, so i can't really tell)
1373 2014-11-26 22:08:02 <op_null> for some reason coinbase thought that was a good idea. it's not.
1374 2014-11-26 22:08:39 <op_null> derp lets make 30GB into 300GB and run it in production!
1375 2014-11-26 22:08:40 <earlz> that's basically what toshi does.. but I'm not trying to run a full node, and I want to be able to use it on altcoins
1376 2014-11-26 22:08:43 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
1377 2014-11-26 22:09:14 <earlz> it's interesting for analysis.. definitely nto something you want in your normal wallet though
1378 2014-11-26 22:09:35 <CodeShark> if bitcoind just had more indexing options and an API that supported greater concurrency... :)
1379 2014-11-26 22:09:43 upgradeadvice has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1380 2014-11-26 22:09:44 <earlz> eh
1381 2014-11-26 22:09:47 <CodeShark> lol
1382 2014-11-26 22:09:49 <op_null> it's really not. you can scan the whole blockchain in a couple of minutes without a single thing written to disk.
1383 2014-11-26 22:09:51 <earlz> it doesn't belong in the core wlalet
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1385 2014-11-26 22:10:03 <CodeShark> I don't want to see bitcoind go in that direction - and I also don't want the core wallet part of bitcoind
1386 2014-11-26 22:10:14 <CodeShark> bitcoind is not a core wallet - it's a relay/validation engine
1387 2014-11-26 22:10:32 <earlz> this is what I'm currently doing, for reference..
1388 2014-11-26 22:10:32 <earlz> select * from vout
1389 2014-11-26 22:10:32 <earlz> left join vin on (vout.txid=vin.txid and vout.number=vin.voutnumber)
1390 2014-11-26 22:10:33 <earlz> where vin.id is null and vout.type='nonstandard' limit 100
1391 2014-11-26 22:10:40 MagicFab_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1392 2014-11-26 22:10:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's also wallet software. And in some respects (sadly) still the best available wallet software.
1393 2014-11-26 22:10:45 <op_null> why spent months or whatever Toshi uses to sync to the network when you can just do it on the fly? nothing you want to do with statistics requires SQL.
1394 2014-11-26 22:10:53 <CodeShark> lol gmaxwell
1395 2014-11-26 22:11:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: note that I didn't say the wallet support was good, but the alternatives are worse.
1396 2014-11-26 22:11:26 <gmaxwell> (at least in some respects)
1397 2014-11-26 22:11:32 <earlz> op_null: have you ever tried doing any advanced analysis?
1398 2014-11-26 22:11:42 <op_null> earlz: yes.
1399 2014-11-26 22:11:54 <gmaxwell> I'd certantly rather have bitcoind packaging a good wallet than a bunch of additional indexing things which aren't needed for the normal operation of a node.
1400 2014-11-26 22:11:55 <earlz> For instance, go point me to a program that determines through the RPC interface alone, the balances of 100 adresses
1401 2014-11-26 22:12:06 <op_null> addresses don't have balances.
1402 2014-11-26 22:12:18 <op_null> so they're all null.
1403 2014-11-26 22:12:25 <CodeShark> @gmaxwell: I was chuckling because your statement was correct - and it is a little sad
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1406 2014-11-26 22:12:34 <gmaxwell> earlz: in the bitcoin system addresses don't have balances. Though you can track additional scriptpubkeys with the watching wallet support.
1407 2014-11-26 22:12:38 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: ah. Agreed.
1408 2014-11-26 22:12:39 <earlz> that "technicality" that is always broght up is annoying
1409 2014-11-26 22:13:00 grandmaster2 has joined
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1411 2014-11-26 22:13:02 <op_null> it's true. you asked me an invalid question.
1412 2014-11-26 22:13:19 <earlz> ok, go determine "the sum of the unspent outputs that are spendable by the owner of a public key hashed to X"
1413 2014-11-26 22:13:19 <gmaxwell> earlz: it's not merely a technicality, it's fairly fundimental to the system and has non-trivial implications.
1414 2014-11-26 22:13:29 grandmaster2 has quit (Client Quit)
1415 2014-11-26 22:13:31 <gmaxwell> (ones related to security, privacy, and scalability)
1416 2014-11-26 22:13:37 <sipa> earlz: use a watch-only wallet :)
1417 2014-11-26 22:13:42 <CodeShark> let's agree that an address balance is the sum of all unspent outputs signable using the key corresponding to that address
1418 2014-11-26 22:13:47 easye`` has joined
1419 2014-11-26 22:13:49 <CodeShark> and then we can say addresses do have balances :p
1420 2014-11-26 22:13:56 <earlz> yes
1421 2014-11-26 22:14:01 <sipa> and it would be technically correct, but no less confusing
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1423 2014-11-26 22:14:14 <earlz> because saying ":address balance" is a lot easier than a paragraph of explanation
1424 2014-11-26 22:14:19 <op_null> earlz: that's easy enough, you can just pull that from the UTXO and filter by pubkeyhash. never tried it that way though.
1425 2014-11-26 22:14:20 <sipa> (for people who don't know or understand the technical explanation)
1426 2014-11-26 22:14:31 <op_null> earlz: the term you want is "spendable outputs" I suspect.
1427 2014-11-26 22:14:37 <earlz> can you do that from the rpc interface?
1428 2014-11-26 22:14:43 <sipa> yes
1429 2014-11-26 22:14:52 <sipa> bitcoin-cli addaddress <address>
1430 2014-11-26 22:14:55 <sipa> or so
1431 2014-11-26 22:14:58 <sipa> no, importaddress
1432 2014-11-26 22:15:04 <sipa> utxo scanning: no
1433 2014-11-26 22:15:06 <earlz> or even more complicated... what is this address' balance at a blockheight of X
1434 2014-11-26 22:15:19 * op_null bops earlz 
1435 2014-11-26 22:15:43 <CodeShark> there is a need for a general purpose high-performance, small open-source blockchain database application, though
1436 2014-11-26 22:16:14 <CodeShark> I'm not sure any of the ones out there really qualify as high performance and open-source
1437 2014-11-26 22:16:16 <CodeShark> err
1438 2014-11-26 22:16:16 <op_null> and again, you can do that with an on the fly scan. read out the blocks, filter outputs for that pubkeyhash, remove ones as they get spent. nothing needs to be written to disk, no sql.
1439 2014-11-26 22:16:21 <CodeShark> and small
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1441 2014-11-26 22:16:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: see earlz with "what is this address' balance at a blockheight of X" is showing precisely why this is not something we're likely to ever accomidate in bitcoind.
1442 2014-11-26 22:17:04 <gmaxwell> since there is _no_ state-space efficient way to provide that information.
1443 2014-11-26 22:17:08 <CodeShark> the term "address" is where the problem begins
1444 2014-11-26 22:17:09 <CodeShark> :p
1445 2014-11-26 22:17:33 <gmaxwell> yes, indeed, the problem is the word "address"  they really should be called "Invoice identifiers" or something like that. :)
1446 2014-11-26 22:17:49 <CodeShark> in computer science, an address generally IS the index :p
1447 2014-11-26 22:17:53 <gmaxwell> alas, hindsight is 20/20.
1448 2014-11-26 22:17:53 <sipa> s/should be/should have been/
1449 2014-11-26 22:17:59 <earlz> well, even beyodn that.. chart the historical transaction volume using only the RPC interface
1450 2014-11-26 22:18:04 <sipa> changing the word address now wouldn't have any meaning
1451 2014-11-26 22:18:43 <gmaxwell> earlz: thats never going to be supported in plain bitcoind as there is no efficient way to support that kind of operation. We may support plugins or other optional hooks for people who are not resource constrained... but it has a huge cost.
1452 2014-11-26 22:18:48 <op_null> earlz: don't add arbitrary restrictions. you can do all of this stuff just with the raw block files. you could do that over the RPC interface, fetching every block and processingit, but it would be stupidly slow.
1453 2014-11-26 22:18:57 <earlz> historical difficulty probably wouldn't be too hard.. but would still require a full blockchain scan
1454 2014-11-26 22:19:11 <sipa> earlz: no; difficulty data is entirely in memory
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1456 2014-11-26 22:19:31 <CodeShark> it would be beautiful if the bitcoin protocol inherently indexed txouts as part of its core data structures - but alas... :p
1457 2014-11-26 22:19:50 <earlz> op_null: well that's my point then.. why not store that data in n easily queryable interface?
1458 2014-11-26 22:20:00 <earlz> sounds like you just don't like SQL ;)
1459 2014-11-26 22:20:06 <gmaxwell> Right now a full node can happily run with a gigabyte of storage, and two hundred megs of ram... and stay roughly within the envelope for at least the mid term future. All the operations you're taking about require over 30 gigabytes of storage, and to make them efficient potentially two or three times that.
1460 2014-11-26 22:20:09 <op_null> earlz: because most people won't like 500GB of block chain on their disk.
1461 2014-11-26 22:20:31 <earlz> I'm not sayign just anoying will be installing this
1462 2014-11-26 22:20:32 <op_null> and people that choose to have 500GB on their disk are doing it so wrong nothing can help you.
1463 2014-11-26 22:20:38 <gmaxwell> earlz: the import the blockchain into sql things currentl have a minimum resource requirement on the order of 300gbytes.
1464 2014-11-26 22:20:56 <op_null> gmaxwell: 316GB https://bitcoin.toshi.io/
1465 2014-11-26 22:21:32 <CodeShark> 500GB is cheap nowadays...and there's certainly a need for good DB apps - but bitcoind should focus primarily on the most efficient way to validate and relay messages and prevent DoS
1466 2014-11-26 22:21:39 <earlz> how else would you do it? if you want a way to query the blockchain, and don't want to manually decode block fiels (because that's usually stupidly difficult)
1467 2014-11-26 22:21:45 <gmaxwell> If you build bitcoin applications predicated on designs that have 300gbyte requirements today, you're going to have a very hard time in the future.... unless you're some big centeralized bank like service where terrabytes of ram backed databases are no big deal.
1468 2014-11-26 22:21:52 <op_null> earlz: dude, I've done it!
1469 2014-11-26 22:22:00 <CodeShark> and prevent other attacks like deanonymization :)
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1471 2014-11-26 22:22:20 <earlz> how?
1472 2014-11-26 22:22:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: how do you mean RAM is expensive... where i used to work we had the web in ram :p
1473 2014-11-26 22:22:35 <op_null> it's easy, it's stupid fast, and you can do everything you want without touching the disk. my biggest problem is just getting the blocks off the disk fast enough in the first place.
1474 2014-11-26 22:22:39 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes. I agree, but I take it a step further and point out that many of the people who would use huge databases are doing themselves a huge disservice.
1475 2014-11-26 22:22:56 <earlz> you can't store the blockchain in RAM
1476 2014-11-26 22:23:01 <gmaxwell> sure you can.
1477 2014-11-26 22:23:08 <sipa> earlz: sure you can; I have 24 GB in my laptop
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1479 2014-11-26 22:23:11 <op_null> I've done that too, but you don't need to.
1480 2014-11-26 22:23:20 <gmaxwell> I have hosts that have enough ram for it. meh, you don't even need an unusual motherboard anymore to have 64gbytes of ram.
1481 2014-11-26 22:23:23 <earlz> well, you can... but is 24G of RAM better than 300G of harddrive?
1482 2014-11-26 22:23:31 <sipa> significantly faster
1483 2014-11-26 22:23:35 <op_null> if you're processing for information on the fly you read the block, then ditch it. you don't need any memory footprint for blocks at all.
1484 2014-11-26 22:23:46 <gmaxwell> earlz: potentially, linear scanning the whole chain in ram can be much faster than making thousands of index queries against a disk.
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1486 2014-11-26 22:24:13 <earlz> the thing is, most queries aren't just a linear scan
1487 2014-11-26 22:24:21 <gmaxwell> the znort blockscanner tool I think takes on the oder of 25 minutes to scan the whole chain. Depends on the queries you're doing.
1488 2014-11-26 22:24:21 <sipa> yeah, that's been my argument against indexing facilities in bitcoind: not that they're hard or useless... but they may encourage people to build infrastructure that relies on the index being available (now in a time when they're still small)
1489 2014-11-26 22:24:30 <op_null> earlz: sure they are.
1490 2014-11-26 22:24:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. something that did a million index lookups on spinning disk is going to take longer than just scaning the whole chain.
1491 2014-11-26 22:24:56 <earlz> you have to blow up the blocks to queryable pieces at one point or another. You can do it in a databse on disk, or in RAM
1492 2014-11-26 22:25:04 <op_null> ... no
1493 2014-11-26 22:25:45 <gmaxwell> earlz: you don't... see the scanner tool I just mentioned.... but in any case, we've become divorced from applications in the discussion here.
1494 2014-11-26 22:26:05 <sipa> if your application needs an efficiently queryable index, then yes you'll need an index
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1496 2014-11-26 22:26:15 <sipa> and if you want to do that in SQL, go ahead
1497 2014-11-26 22:26:17 <earlz> gmaxwell: where as, after initially importing the blockchain in a SQL database, keeping it up to date is trivial and I can query it and most things I've done so far take abotu 3 seconds on my slow laptop
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1499 2014-11-26 22:26:42 <gmaxwell> earlz: Good for you.
1500 2014-11-26 22:26:50 <gmaxwell> This doesn't make it generally interesting.
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1502 2014-11-26 22:27:08 <op_null> earlz: you can do much more intense "queries" during an on the fly scan without any footprint or precomputation at all. if you can suffer 3 seconds you can suffer a few minutes.
1503 2014-11-26 22:27:33 <gmaxwell> (and there are ... plenty of queries which aren't so simple ... e.g. go do taint analysis from your database, ... it's much faster to just seq scan for that unless you're already precomputing exactly that query)
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1506 2014-11-26 22:29:40 <earlz> that's true. SQL is a tool that works well in some cases though.. and even then 3 seconds is a lot more tolerable than 25 minutes... but taint analyssis and other similar queries that basically just require a sequentical scan won't be best done in SQL
1507 2014-11-26 22:29:54 <earlz> that's pretty mnuch common sense
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1509 2014-11-26 22:30:00 <op_null> who said 25 minutes?
1510 2014-11-26 22:30:06 <earlz> choose the right tool ;)
1511 2014-11-26 22:30:24 <sipa> this discussion is pointless
1512 2014-11-26 22:30:32 <earlz> indeed
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1516 2014-11-26 22:33:22 <gmaxwell> earlz: in any case the point was that the applications we seek to serve, and ought to seek to serve (IMO) in bitcoind itself are ones where such indexes are not required, and having them would actively be harmful to our goals because they break scalablity; which ultimately results in centeralization if people depend on them for things that they could avoid.  I'm happy for people doing things where those costs are justified to go do what ...
1517 2014-11-26 22:33:28 <gmaxwell> ... they will, thats their own concern... and not really of interest for this channel.
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1578 2014-11-26 23:49:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: if you care to reply https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=874392.0
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1580 2014-11-26 23:51:15 <sipa> done
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