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195 2014-12-01 06:02:39 <erasmospunk> Checkout the new version of the Coinomi Universal Wallet - http://coinomi.com/
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307 2014-12-01 09:08:48 <smokeyfires> test
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309 2014-12-01 09:09:29 lclc_bnc is now known as lclc
310 2014-12-01 09:14:48 <sipa> test failed
311 2014-12-01 09:15:51 <phantomcircuit> ha
312 2014-12-01 09:18:27 <wumpus> please use the testnet channel for testing, not the mainnet development channel ;)
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319 2014-12-01 09:24:53 <JackH> lol
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387 2014-12-01 12:43:46 <Luke-Jr> blah, the prioritisetransaction RPC interface is being changed? -.-
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412 2014-12-01 13:19:02 <wumpus> hm? where?
413 2014-12-01 13:19:50 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: back in July. you poked me, but I missed it
414 2014-12-01 13:20:10 <Luke-Jr> ebdcc360b65816f7ad7cdedce6a1114d5e014b7b
415 2014-12-01 13:20:35 <wumpus> calling something that happened in july 'is being changed' is kind of a far stretch
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417 2014-12-01 13:21:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, changed from what it's been since 2012 :P
418 2014-12-01 13:21:53 <wumpus> using AmountFromValue makes sense though
419 2014-12-01 13:22:13 <wumpus> if you want satoshis there, change AmountFromValue to use satoshis everywhere...
420 2014-12-01 13:22:16 <Luke-Jr> perhaps, but it's not what's in use
421 2014-12-01 13:22:21 <Luke-Jr> we should.
422 2014-12-01 13:22:55 <wumpus> I had a pull making that configurable once, but no one cared
423 2014-12-01 13:23:23 <wumpus> anyhow, for sake of consistency it's not going to be changed back, it is not in any releases yet so changing the interface is fine
424 2014-12-01 13:23:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's in releases, just not Bitcoin Core ones
425 2014-12-01 13:23:42 <Luke-Jr> since v0.6.1
426 2014-12-01 13:23:48 <wumpus> bitcoin core releases are all we care about
427 2014-12-01 13:24:07 <Luke-Jr> that kind of attitude is extremely hostile to open development IMO
428 2014-12-01 13:24:41 <wumpus> anyhow I highlighted you there back then to ask even
429 2014-12-01 13:24:42 <Luke-Jr> "all that matters is one official branch, and we'll break compatibility with other branches even if they've been in use for 2 years"
430 2014-12-01 13:24:46 <wumpus> it's too late now
431 2014-12-01 13:24:48 <Luke-Jr> yes, I missed that. sorry.
432 2014-12-01 13:24:53 <Luke-Jr> why?
433 2014-12-01 13:25:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how many people use prioritizetransaction>
434 2014-12-01 13:25:02 <Luke-Jr> nothing has been released with the incompatible change yet
435 2014-12-01 13:25:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no idea
436 2014-12-01 13:25:17 <sipa> i'm sure you do
437 2014-12-01 13:25:21 <Luke-Jr> indeed
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439 2014-12-01 13:26:04 <kinlo> there are not that many ppl that can actually use it
440 2014-12-01 13:26:09 <kinlo> 5 pools, that's it?
441 2014-12-01 13:26:28 <kinlo> my transactions are confirmed way before my pool finds a block, so no need to use prioritize :)
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443 2014-12-01 13:26:54 <Luke-Jr> that's a point
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446 2014-12-01 13:27:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: re changing it everywhere: every time that comes up, I think we conclude we should just break the interface, but nobody wants to put effort into every change we want to make at once, so it never happens :p
447 2014-12-01 13:28:04 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: what, I had actual code that did it
448 2014-12-01 13:28:16 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: breaking compatibility rather than an option, I mean
449 2014-12-01 13:28:40 <Luke-Jr> various people have had code to do it since 2011ish I think
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451 2014-12-01 13:28:44 <Luke-Jr> maybe genjix's was 2010 even
452 2014-12-01 13:28:52 <wumpus> well having an option would be the first step, later the default could change, and even later the option could go away again
453 2014-12-01 13:28:53 <Luke-Jr> but there are other RPC changes people want at the same time
454 2014-12-01 13:29:10 <wumpus> but even the first step is not going to happen, it just doesn't have priority
455 2014-12-01 13:29:18 <Luke-Jr> sure, seems this might be a case of "perfect is enemy of the good"
456 2014-12-01 13:29:24 <wumpus> right
457 2014-12-01 13:29:27 <sipa> the only way that will happen is by doing RPCv2
458 2014-12-01 13:29:33 <wumpus> I don't care about it anymore
459 2014-12-01 13:29:37 <sipa> neither do i
460 2014-12-01 13:29:38 <wumpus> lots of other things that do matter
461 2014-12-01 13:30:07 <wumpus> without the wallet the number of RPC calls with monetary amounts would drop to almost zero anyhow
462 2014-12-01 13:30:26 <wumpus> (though prioritisetransaction would stay...)
463 2014-12-01 13:30:27 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, just seems a shame to be making releases for 4 years now, and have the main branch release an incompatible version of it; but as kinlo points out, not many people can possibly be using it
464 2014-12-01 13:30:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that might be an argument for doing prioritise in satoshis - rather than having it change twice
465 2014-12-01 13:30:59 <wumpus> sigh...
466 2014-12-01 13:31:18 <Luke-Jr> are there any other BTC-value RPCs that don't go away when wallet does?
467 2014-12-01 13:31:38 <wumpus> that's always when you submit code upstream, you can't count on interfaces staying the same
468 2014-12-01 13:31:53 <wumpus> e.g. try adding a syscall to the linux kernel
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470 2014-12-01 13:32:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Linux's development model is very centralised in this regard. I don't think it makes a good example to follow if we want a decentralised ecosystem.
471 2014-12-01 13:32:20 <wumpus> other people will have opinions on things before they are merged
472 2014-12-01 13:33:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: people didn't have an opinion to change this for the 2 years
473 2014-12-01 13:33:06 <wumpus> I also don't like how prioritisetransaction took that long to get merged, but that's another issue
474 2014-12-01 13:33:23 <wumpus> why didn't *all those users* ever comment on the issue?
475 2014-12-01 13:34:04 <Luke-Jr> yeah, kinlo's point that not many can use it is strong - but then the point that we're likely to change it back at some future time seems to go for satoshis again :p
476 2014-12-01 13:34:18 <sipa> why would we ever want to change it back?
477 2014-12-01 13:34:29 <gmaxwell> because they're getting patches from luke instead of reading github. but... in any case, thats the cost of out of master patches, stuff may change if merged.
478 2014-12-01 13:34:30 <sipa> yes, when and if the RPC as a whole gets overhauled, sure
479 2014-12-01 13:34:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: with wallet gone, it's the only thing left usign BTC now?
480 2014-12-01 13:34:53 <gmaxwell> I agree I'd rather everything be base units; ... but alas, it's not, and having a single call using them would likely trip up people more than the other way around.
481 2014-12-01 13:35:16 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no it's not... the transaction parsing json etc also uses amounts
482 2014-12-01 13:35:20 <Luke-Jr> (other mining calls also use satoshis)
483 2014-12-01 13:35:27 <sipa> oh?
484 2014-12-01 13:35:53 <Luke-Jr> such as GBT
485 2014-12-01 13:36:16 <sipa> hmm, that's an argument in favor actually
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487 2014-12-01 13:36:49 <sipa> if it's already inconsistant, keep it closer to whatever interface are likely more used together
488 2014-12-01 13:36:59 <gmaxwell> since its the txlist that gbt gives you that your prioritizing relative to? I suppose that does make sene.
489 2014-12-01 13:38:19 <wumpus> AmountFromValue is used 2 times in non-wallet RPC code, ValueFromAmount 10 times, mostly for fee-related things
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492 2014-12-01 13:41:36 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, I think we've now covered every angle to this.. so the only question is what the consensus is for 0.10; I think overall, leaving it satoshis is best - but since few use it, it's not a huge deal if we change it (unless we then change it back later, when more people will hopefully use it)
493 2014-12-01 13:43:38 <wumpus> ...so, does AmountFromValue even work for negative values?
494 2014-12-01 13:46:30 <Luke-Jr> lol, good question >_<
495 2014-12-01 13:46:32 <wumpus> another reason it took so long to merge prioritisetransaction is that it has no tests
496 2014-12-01 13:46:40 <Luke-Jr> I don't think it can
497 2014-12-01 13:46:42 <wumpus> so no one noticed it doesn't work.
498 2014-12-01 13:46:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it did as merged ;)
499 2014-12-01 13:46:51 <wumpus> (well, at least for half the cases)
500 2014-12-01 13:47:25 <Luke-Jr> so yeah, if we keep it BTC, we need to at least fix that >_<
501 2014-12-01 13:48:11 <gmaxwell> if we'd change it back, we'd change everything. or have some other mode or something.. so I'm not worried there.
502 2014-12-01 13:50:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
503 2014-12-01 13:50:29 <Luke-Jr> nm, got it
504 2014-12-01 13:51:32 <wumpus> well I think making the RPC call work again is a good reason to merge #5398
505 2014-12-01 13:52:10 <wumpus> although it still really needs tests...
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507 2014-12-01 13:55:14 <Luke-Jr> it would fit in nicely with CreateNewBlock_validity which already generates transactions, but.. it's RPC :/
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510 2014-12-01 13:55:36 <Luke-Jr> I suppose we can test the internal interface there, but that won't catch bugs like this one\
511 2014-12-01 13:55:37 <wumpus> it would need an rpc test in qa/rpc-tests
512 2014-12-01 13:56:14 <wumpus> sure, testing the internal interface in unit tests also doesn't hurt, although as you say it wouldn't have caught this
513 2014-12-01 13:56:33 <Luke-Jr> it would need to have validly spendable coins, is the issue
514 2014-12-01 13:56:50 <wumpus> that's easy in a rpc test
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516 2014-12-01 13:57:19 <wumpus> less so in a unit test
517 2014-12-01 13:57:20 <sipa> the RPC tests already have code for that
518 2014-12-01 13:58:06 <wumpus> yes
519 2014-12-01 13:58:15 <Luke-Jr> ah
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529 2014-12-01 14:09:30 <wumpus> right, there are plenty of things that require spendable coins for testing
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531 2014-12-01 14:17:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: this look okay? // NOTE: Unlike wallet RPC (which use BTC values), mining RPCs follow GBT (BIP 22) in using satoshi amounts
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535 2014-12-01 14:26:38 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: sure
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537 2014-12-01 14:27:00 <Luke-Jr> k, pushed
538 2014-12-01 14:28:14 <sipa> wumpus: after secp256k1 #119 is merged, i'll PR the changes into bitcoin, ok? (which should make gmp optional)
539 2014-12-01 14:29:43 <wumpus> sipa: sounds good; we should then also update doc/build-unix.md again to move it to the optional dependencies
540 2014-12-01 14:30:24 <sipa> after a few more changes, i also think the difference between using and not using gmp (for verification) should be less than 30-40% ish in performance
541 2014-12-01 14:30:44 <sipa> so it's very reasonable to just never use the gmp version inside bitcoin
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543 2014-12-01 14:31:23 <sipa> (no dependencies in consensus code is probably even worth a 30% performance cost)
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545 2014-12-01 14:33:18 <wumpus> indeed, I suppose so, and it's just the initial drop, I suppose people will optimize secp256k1 further over time
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547 2014-12-01 14:34:19 <wumpus> it's still plenty faster than openssl based verification :)
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558 2014-12-01 15:01:43 <jgarzik> sipa, hum, I don't see https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/issues/119
559 2014-12-01 15:01:56 <jgarzik> link to "secp256k1 #119"?
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568 2014-12-01 15:13:48 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/119/files
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575 2014-12-01 15:24:14 <sipa> jgarzik: as wumpus says, master repo is bitcoin/secp256k1
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582 2014-12-01 15:28:30 <jgarzik> wumpus, sipa: whoops, cut-n-paste error indeed
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636 2014-12-01 16:52:21 <gavinandresen> FYI to anybody having trouble with qa/rpc-tests #!/usr/bin/env python2 on OSX: brew install python will install a /usr/local/bin/python2 symlink.
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666 2014-12-01 17:38:39 <hearn> gavinandresen: i noticed a lot of blocks are topping out at 731kb - that's pretty much what we'd expect from hitting the 750k soft limit, right?
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668 2014-12-01 17:38:44 <hearn> gavinandresen: maybe it's time to bump soft limit == hard limit
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670 2014-12-01 17:39:30 <gavinandresen> hearn: yup
671 2014-12-01 17:40:19 <Luke-Jr> hearn: so talk to miners.. are we really hitting 750 kB of non-spam, or is it just miners neglecting to filter spam that are hitting it?
672 2014-12-01 17:40:36 <Jouke> yes
673 2014-12-01 17:42:23 <hearn> setting aside for one moment the never-ending argument over what "spam" is, in block 332459 which was 731kb, i see only one transaction with a "dice" labelled address on blockchain.info
674 2014-12-01 17:42:47 <Luke-Jr> hmm, looks like Eligius's most recent 2 blocks were >900k, but previous 6 were much smaller
675 2014-12-01 17:42:51 <hearn> if dice sites are still popular, then they must have switched addresses
676 2014-12-01 17:43:10 <hearn> well it's very dependent on the spacings between them
677 2014-12-01 17:43:23 <hearn> if we go 20-30 minutes with no block the next one should be full because it's going to try and stuff several blocks worth of traffic into a single block
678 2014-12-01 17:43:35 <hearn> a block that comes 60 seconds after the previous can be tiny. avg block size is only about 350kb according to b.i
679 2014-12-01 17:43:57 <hearn> however, it's not healthy to have blockages piling up because of natural variance, i think
680 2014-12-01 17:43:58 <Luke-Jr> wtf @ a bunch of 0 BTC transactions
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682 2014-12-01 17:44:31 <Luke-Jr> https://blockchain.info/tx/d517a40dcae12011aea3b61c764784e6b5fb00c7c48a7b9783c8c5cd9311e956?show_adv=true looks like spam of a new style?
683 2014-12-01 17:45:22 <hearn> looks like someone is timestamping a document
684 2014-12-01 17:45:35 <Luke-Jr> http://www.proofofexistence.com/about yeah
685 2014-12-01 17:45:49 <Luke-Jr> except.. a lot of them
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688 2014-12-01 17:48:28 <hearn> well, depends how you define a lot. in that block (332450) there are only a handful of "unable to decode output address" transactions in b.i's view, but it was 882kb
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690 2014-12-01 17:48:36 <hearn> the block would have been about the same size even without them
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692 2014-12-01 17:49:33 <Luke-Jr> yeah, looks like more LuckyBit spam than PoE spam there - but probably still over 750 kB even without them I guess
693 2014-12-01 17:49:37 <hearn> this is a good reminder that ye olde "7 transactions per second" limit is kind of handwavy and bogus because we'd start to encounter really unpredictable confirmation delays long before reaching that traffic level
694 2014-12-01 17:49:47 <hearn> just due to the variance
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697 2014-12-01 17:50:09 <gavinandresen> hearn: yup
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699 2014-12-01 17:51:01 <Luke-Jr> too bad it'd totally screw up miner incentives (I think) to scale block size based on time since previous
700 2014-12-01 17:51:21 <hearn> hmm. would it?
701 2014-12-01 17:51:36 <Luke-Jr> hearn: well, miners could suddenly start timestamping +2h just to get more fees
702 2014-12-01 17:51:50 <hearn> oh, i thought you meant scaling soft block size
703 2014-12-01 17:52:16 <Luke-Jr> I suppose that would make sense to do.. but not sure it's worth it if we're getting close to max anyway
704 2014-12-01 17:52:40 <dgenr8> really unpredictable confirmation delays are pretty much built in )
705 2014-12-01 17:52:51 <hearn> i guess there are two max limits. there's the theoretical limit at 7 tx/sec where we basically are redlining the system and it'd fall over, because if there was ever even a single spurt beyond capacity the network would fall behind and never be able to catch up
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707 2014-12-01 17:53:16 <hearn> and then there's the practical limit at which people start complaining and abandoning the system because confirmations become so unpredictable that it's hard to do business
708 2014-12-01 17:53:46 <hearn> not sure where that latter limit might be. could be anywhere i suppose
709 2014-12-01 17:54:34 <hearn> gavinandresen: think it's too late to get such a change into 0.10? i mean set soft block size == 1mb, to tide us through the winter growth period
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711 2014-12-01 17:55:14 * Luke-Jr ughs at further pressing the idea of developers determining miner policy
712 2014-12-01 17:55:57 <gavinandresen> hearn: good question for wumpus, heâs driving the 0.10 release.
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714 2014-12-01 17:57:22 <hearn> Luke-Jr: block size should really be automatically decided anyway. it always makes sense to maximise your block size up to some level of orphaning at which point the extra fees don't offset the money lost to orphans -this is the sort of calculation software is good at and humans kind of suck at. so eventually i hope it'll be automated.
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717 2014-12-01 18:00:07 <Luke-Jr> that's true, max block size would be irrelevant if we were weighing things like that
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723 2014-12-01 18:03:47 <Luke-Jr> still, in the meantime, better to have people with blogs lart miners if transactions get slow, rather than trying to maintain some constants in the software ;)
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729 2014-12-01 18:06:45 <hearn> sigh. i hate gpgtools. just managed to encrypt a message i was trying to send, to myself instead of the recipient. fail.
730 2014-12-01 18:08:07 kadoban has joined
731 2014-12-01 18:11:19 <Luke-Jr> >_<
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738 2014-12-01 18:16:15 <wumpus> hearn: well I suppose the code has been tested well enough with big blocks by now, so the regression risk isn't that high
739 2014-12-01 18:16:38 <hearn> right. there are quite a lot of blocks near to 1mb
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741 2014-12-01 18:20:00 <wumpus> I'm fine with it, although I wonder how many miners are still using the default soft maximum
742 2014-12-01 18:20:18 <sipa> or are using a recent bitcoin core release at all...
743 2014-12-01 18:21:16 <hearn> well, the number of blocks that top out at exactly the Core default limit suggests quite a few are
744 2014-12-01 18:21:30 <hearn> you can just browse https://www.biteasy.com/blockchain/blocks and look for 732kb
745 2014-12-01 18:21:48 <hearn> there are other clusters corresponding to previous releases soft limits
746 2014-12-01 18:21:52 <sipa> right, but that default limit has been in place for a long time
747 2014-12-01 18:21:56 <sipa> no?
748 2014-12-01 18:22:25 <hearn> i don't think so? the 750kb bump was somewhat recent, i think. before that it was 350kb and then 250kb. unless my memory is faulty
749 2014-12-01 18:22:26 <sipa> anyway, hopefully 0.10 is sufficiently more efficient that they will wan tto upgrade
750 2014-12-01 18:22:29 <hearn> right
751 2014-12-01 18:22:52 <sipa> (not that i agree that bitcoin core default limit should be what drives the network, but it's probably inevitable)
752 2014-12-01 18:23:45 <Luke-Jr> we should be discouraging miners from using the defaults, not changing them IMO
753 2014-12-01 18:24:36 <Luke-Jr> (says the hypocrite who recently had a default-policy-change PR..) :p
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764 2014-12-01 18:32:31 <hearn> In the long run there should be virtually nothing for miners to configure, because miners should have virtually no information on which to discriminate between transactions and every policy decision left would have a clearly correct, automatically calculable answer. In the short run, guesstimation in the code doesn't seem too horrible a compromise. Leaving things to randomly drift though - not great.
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777 2014-12-01 18:45:59 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, disabling bare multisig is more controversial than bumping the block size default
778 2014-12-01 18:46:08 <Luke-Jr> hearn: you're ignoring out-of-band information, such as from partners who subscribe to priority services\
779 2014-12-01 18:46:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that doesn't seem obvious since everyone seemed in agreement with the former
780 2014-12-01 18:47:01 <wumpus> there's almost no argument *against* increasing the soft limit
781 2014-12-01 18:47:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: everyone who commented was personally in favor, but at least I doubt whether nobody who didn't comment wouldn't be against
782 2014-12-01 18:47:20 <Luke-Jr> except miners that neglect to filter spam end up putting more in as a result
783 2014-12-01 18:47:24 <Luke-Jr> which are the same miners who run defaults
784 2014-12-01 18:48:13 <Luke-Jr> it also encourages miners to run with defaults, if defaults get changed like that
785 2014-12-01 18:48:49 <sipa> i wouldn't be against disabling GBT etc without configuring some variables
786 2014-12-01 18:49:31 <sipa> But i'm not sure whether that would actually result in miners deciding sanely...
787 2014-12-01 18:49:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think that PR got closed, but I could rebase it if wanted
788 2014-12-01 18:50:20 <hearn> it's a philosophical point. does decentralisation mean people *have* to make decisions about the minutiae? or merely that they can, if they want to
789 2014-12-01 18:50:35 <hearn> i would say the latter. the former gets you australia's "vote or you get whacked" system :)
790 2014-12-01 18:50:48 <Luke-Jr> hearn: someone always *has* to.
791 2014-12-01 18:50:52 <sipa> hearn: well, *I* don't want to be deciding about the network policy
792 2014-12-01 18:51:01 <Luke-Jr> in this case, that someone should be the miner, NOT some third-party developer
793 2014-12-01 18:51:05 <sipa> though I would like people to listen to my opinion about it :)
794 2014-12-01 18:51:17 <hearn> is it a decision, if anyone who disagrees can override it?
795 2014-12-01 18:51:28 <sipa> but defaults are powerful
796 2014-12-01 18:51:45 <sipa> you may argue that core maintainers are not in charge of network policy, because anyone can override it
797 2014-12-01 18:51:47 <hearn> yeah, because in good software they're normally sanely chosen by people who know what they're doing :)
798 2014-12-01 18:51:52 <wumpus> well the drawback of forcing people to make decisions before it works is that they may fill in nonsense values just to get rid of the choice
799 2014-12-01 18:52:08 <hearn> i've always been a fan of delegated voting systems (for countries). the idea is, everything that goes before parliament is a referendum. but because that's impractical - nobody wants to vote on everything a country does - you can optionally delegate your votes by category.
800 2014-12-01 18:52:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: at least it stops neglegent miners from simply passing the responsibility on
801 2014-12-01 18:52:17 <hearn> the delegation heirarchy forms a tree.
802 2014-12-01 18:52:25 <hearn> you can override your delegation and vote directly at any time.
803 2014-12-01 18:52:30 <hearn> but, you don't *have* to. that's what makes it scale.
804 2014-12-01 18:52:45 <wumpus> voting makes very little sense for difficult technical decisions
805 2014-12-01 18:53:16 <hearn> the issue is not voting. technical committees resolve things by voting all the time, when there's disagreement. the issue is voting when you don't understand or don't care about the outcome. that's clearly suboptimal
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807 2014-12-01 18:53:37 <hearn> delegated voting represents a pragmatic ideal - vote if you want to, delegate to someone else if you aren't sure you know how, or don't care.
808 2014-12-01 18:53:45 <hearn> which is effectively what overridable sane defaults in software do
809 2014-12-01 18:54:08 <Luke-Jr> another option is random defaults within sane ranges
810 2014-12-01 18:54:26 <wumpus> it turns things into a popularity show, and people that don't understand the compromise choose what is desirable instead of what is realistic
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812 2014-12-01 18:54:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: what would be the use of a random block limit?
813 2014-12-01 18:55:32 <sipa> encouraging overriding the limit, i guess
814 2014-12-01 18:55:33 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: so miners have a reason to set something, and can't just simply defer to developers
815 2014-12-01 18:55:44 <wumpus> I guess randomness is useful if there is an advantage to having diverse configurations
816 2014-12-01 18:56:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: eg, trying to discourage the "not using defaults is bad for bitcoin" mindset
817 2014-12-01 18:56:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right
818 2014-12-01 18:56:39 <hearn> what's wrong with that mindset? there are clearly values for various default settings that make sense
819 2014-12-01 18:57:01 <sipa> hearn: one argument against that is that bitcoin core releases don't keep up with the network
820 2014-12-01 18:57:01 <hearn> do you want to stop bitcoind starting up until someone configures a max number of connections?
821 2014-12-01 18:57:27 <sipa> the network is a changing environment, and it may be more optimal if people reevaluate the policy they're committing too, more frequently then we're doing releases
822 2014-12-01 18:57:44 <sipa> because it shouldn't be our job; perhaps it should be the community's job (which we're part of)
823 2014-12-01 18:57:51 <wumpus> sipa: indeed
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825 2014-12-01 18:58:04 <hearn> sipa: sure, but people hardly do better. besides, requiring everyone to be an expert in a thousand settings in order to run a node can't really help decentralisation. you just end up with a tiny p2p network of people who are either experts, or just very opinionated. that's why i'd like to see everything be automatic one day.
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827 2014-12-01 18:58:29 <sipa> hearn: i understand; which is also my hesitation; it may just result in much less informed decisions overall
828 2014-12-01 18:58:53 <wumpus> the thing is that there is very little incentive for miners to tweak settings, it's not like it substantially increases profits
829 2014-12-01 18:59:00 <Luke-Jr> hearn: for example, you have people like petertodd who threaten to would-testify in court against Eligius if we don't confirm the same transaction "everyone else" does.
830 2014-12-01 18:59:15 <Luke-Jr> trying to imply we are responsible for the transactions mined
831 2014-12-01 18:59:17 <wumpus> (though the blocksize does have an impact there, more fees)
832 2014-12-01 18:59:33 <hearn> hah, he did huh
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834 2014-12-01 18:59:45 <Luke-Jr> hearn: no, it hasn't come up. he implied he would, if it did.
835 2014-12-01 18:59:57 <hearn> right
836 2014-12-01 19:00:12 <hearn> perhaps it's easier to think about other settings that aren't block related. the issue of defaults is general.
837 2014-12-01 19:00:16 <hearn> e.g. max connections
838 2014-12-01 19:00:33 <Luke-Jr> those aren't the same sensitivity
839 2014-12-01 19:00:41 <wumpus> those are not controversial at all
840 2014-12-01 19:00:44 <wumpus> indeed Luke-Jr
841 2014-12-01 19:00:45 <Luke-Jr> if you neglect to configure max connections, it only affects you
842 2014-12-01 19:01:08 <wumpus> well max *outgoing* connections is
843 2014-12-01 19:01:17 <hearn> right. it affects other apps on the network.
844 2014-12-01 19:01:23 <hearn> i meant "max total slots available"
845 2014-12-01 19:01:50 <hearn> the right answer is basically always some function of RAM available for the node (which may be limited below total RAM because the user wants some to play games or whatever)
846 2014-12-01 19:02:20 <hearn> but trying to make users pick that and configure it themselves isn't quite right. letting people configure RAM limits is. but forcing people to specify how much RAM to use .... that's MacOS 9 territory.
847 2014-12-01 19:02:23 <Luke-Jr> and routers in between
848 2014-12-01 19:02:32 <Luke-Jr> and maybe IP filters if the user doesn't want to talk to some other node(s)
849 2014-12-01 19:02:51 <Luke-Jr> hearn: again, if the user has these things wrong, it only affects them
850 2014-12-01 19:02:53 <Luke-Jr> not everyone else
851 2014-12-01 19:03:01 <wumpus> yes, many consumer routers get messed up with too many connections
852 2014-12-01 19:03:10 <sipa> if everyone suddenly would only make 1 outgoing connection, the network *would* have a problem
853 2014-12-01 19:03:24 <sipa> if everyone decreases it to 4, or increases it to 12... less sure
854 2014-12-01 19:03:36 <sipa> i think there's a reasonably wide range within which it probably doesn't matter all that much
855 2014-12-01 19:03:47 <wumpus> indeed
856 2014-12-01 19:04:06 <sipa> but miners are in a privileged position, where the poilicy they select affects the whole network, outside of people's choice
857 2014-12-01 19:04:26 <sipa> so i do think that treating them differently may be acceptable
858 2014-12-01 19:04:45 <sipa> still not sure about the give-reasonable-defaults vs force-people-to-choose-them
859 2014-12-01 19:05:07 * Luke-Jr wonders if we need to think more on CVE-2013-2292 at some point
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861 2014-12-01 19:06:38 <wumpus> hearn: for the case of networking easiest would be to offer different network profiles, ie have a setting for typical home dsl, for typical vps, etc, like in some torrent clients
862 2014-12-01 19:06:57 <hearn> you mean for max conn slots?
863 2014-12-01 19:06:57 <sipa> that makes sense
864 2014-12-01 19:06:59 <gavinandresen> speaking of denial of service attacks⦠the Foundation is now paying Sergio to work part-time on reviewing changes, etc.
865 2014-12-01 19:07:00 <wumpus> hearn: this would automatically select defaults for the number of connections, bandwidth limits, etc
866 2014-12-01 19:07:12 <hearn> gavinandresen: that's good news
867 2014-12-01 19:07:13 <Luke-Jr> reasonable-but-uncomfortable defaults have the potential to improve awareness of miners needing to decide policy
868 2014-12-01 19:07:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: ah, is Sergio the secret new hire?
869 2014-12-01 19:07:19 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yup good news
870 2014-12-01 19:07:30 <hearn> wumpus: limiting fact in conn slots is RAM rather than bandwidth, i think
871 2014-12-01 19:07:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, contract signed in the last day or so.
872 2014-12-01 19:07:36 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: great news
873 2014-12-01 19:07:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: awesome!
874 2014-12-01 19:07:56 <wumpus> hearn: oh possibly, but that shouldn't be the case
875 2014-12-01 19:07:59 <hearn> will he be coding as well?
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877 2014-12-01 19:08:48 <gavinandresen> hearn: yes, he should have more time to both find and help fix issues he finds.
878 2014-12-01 19:09:16 <hearn> that's good
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885 2014-12-01 19:12:33 <hearn> i hope he can work on a resource scheduling/limiter architecture
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889 2014-12-01 19:13:10 <gavinandresen> I donât think Sergio is the right person for that job, but Iâd be very happy to be wrong abou that.
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899 2014-12-01 19:17:34 <sipa> so... all libsecp256k1 pull requests together result in verification performance 5.7x that of openssl l, without runtime dependencies
900 2014-12-01 19:17:58 <sipa> with GMP it's 7.3x
901 2014-12-01 19:18:45 <HM> now make it run on 32 cores
902 2014-12-01 19:19:35 <sipa> thV
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904 2014-12-01 19:20:04 <sipa> zAazd
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907 2014-12-01 19:21:31 <hearn> sipa's keyboard encountered a 32-way data race
908 2014-12-01 19:21:51 _yoy_ has joined
909 2014-12-01 19:23:21 <sipa> nope,.forgot to lock my phone while putting it in my pocket
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911 2014-12-01 19:27:35 <hearn> missing locks! see, i was right after all
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916 2014-12-01 19:32:36 <sipa> ha
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1067 2014-12-01 22:08:45 <sipa> Travis is down?
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1069 2014-12-01 22:12:23 <lechuga_> looks like it
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1118 2014-12-01 23:01:26 <jtimon> am I missing something obvious about overflows or something here? https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/compare/checkinputs
1119 2014-12-01 23:01:36 <jtimon> Is it possible for nValueIn - tx.GetValueOut() < 0 to be false after nValueIn < tx.GetValueOut() being true?
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1131 2014-12-01 23:21:59 <gmaxwell> jtimon: you're not longer accumulating nFees?
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1133 2014-12-01 23:24:00 <jtimon> nFees and nTxFee are in the same context, nobody else's uses nFees within checkinputs, there was no accumulation
1134 2014-12-01 23:24:29 <jtimon> that's the first commit
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1140 2014-12-01 23:30:26 <jtimon> I'm assuming that and the second one are correct, really asking about the last one
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1143 2014-12-01 23:35:21 <gmaxwell> I don't see how it could be unless CAmounts were something far stranger than an integer.
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1150 2014-12-01 23:38:49 <jtimon> thank yo I'll create a PR
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1152 2014-12-01 23:39:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i want a sidechain with amounts that are quaternions
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1161 2014-12-01 23:45:53 <lechuga_> isn't that what ethers are measured in
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1164 2014-12-01 23:47:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: issued assets with vector valued outputs? "you added a sparse matrix library to the consensus code?!?"
1165 2014-12-01 23:47:42 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: well I suppose it's all imaginary numbers.
1166 2014-12-01 23:47:52 <lechuga_> lol
1167 2014-12-01 23:48:28 <sipa> aren't there any ethereal or surreal numbers?
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1172 2014-12-01 23:55:17 <jtimon> #5402 done