1 2014-12-02 00:01:59 <michagogo> Erm, wtf is up with travis?
   2 2014-12-02 00:02:07 <michagogo> Chrome says This webpage is not available
   3 2014-12-02 00:02:11 <michagogo> ...
   4 2014-12-02 00:02:12 <michagogo> Error code: DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
   5 2014-12-02 00:02:53 <sipa> dns resolver issues
   6 2014-12-02 00:04:29 <michagogo> ...their Twitter account links to http://status.travis-ci.com/incidents/0z5p05dnfn58
   7 2014-12-02 00:04:35 <michagogo> ...which has the same problem, apparently
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  81 2014-12-02 01:55:50 <s1w> michagogo: dnsimple problems
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 177 2014-12-02 05:24:42 <wumpus> i want a sidechain with amounts that are quaternions <- what a great idea, I've always found single-dimensional monetary systems so restrictive
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 225 2014-12-02 07:10:08 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, hah
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 227 2014-12-02 07:13:29 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: so if you'd have exponential growth, your holdings would not only grow but also rotate in four-dimensional space over time
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 317 2014-12-02 09:30:06 <hegemoOn> plop
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 330 2014-12-02 09:49:12 <jonasschnelli> playing with regtest: can anyone explain why the balance is always 0.0 for the first mined 100 blocks (coinbase)?
 331 2014-12-02 09:51:19 <sipa> because the coinbase transactions need to mature before becoming spendable
 332 2014-12-02 09:51:46 <jonasschnelli> sipa 100 blocks is a static value?
 333 2014-12-02 09:51:58 <sipa> yes
 334 2014-12-02 09:52:22 <jonasschnelli> sipa thanks. I need to slowly dig into the internals... :)
 335 2014-12-02 09:52:46 <sipa> coinbase outputs cannot be spent until 100 blocks are mined on top first
 336 2014-12-02 09:53:06 <jonasschnelli> okay. i see.
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 364 2014-12-02 10:19:22 <Yuhjn> ive recently been introduced to cryptocurrencies and I'm still wrapping my head around all of this.  I'm struggling to find reasons that the banking cartels will not simply step in and make all this stuff illegal once it becomes apparent how paradigm shifting it is for them
 365 2014-12-02 10:19:48 <sipa> #bitcoin
 366 2014-12-02 10:19:52 <wumpus> welcome! but #bitcoin please, that's not a -dev topic
 367 2014-12-02 10:22:26 <Yuhjn> ah, yes ok sorry sipa.  Ok then perhaps this question is more development-centric.  At what point is specialization in cryptocurrencies a viable professional option?  Has the industry picked up enough steam to start hiring legions of mediocre developers yet?
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 369 2014-12-02 10:23:17 <Yuhjn> or are we still had the stage where guys do it because it's a new, novel, and interesting subject?
 370 2014-12-02 10:24:42 <Luke-Jr> Yuhjn: specialisation is in high-demand, but … that's different from mediocre
 371 2014-12-02 10:24:45 nglpx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 372 2014-12-02 10:24:59 <wumpus> well, speaking for myself it is both an interesting subject and a viable professional option
 373 2014-12-02 10:25:43 <sipa> same :)
 374 2014-12-02 10:27:26 <Yuhjn> yeah clearly this is a pretty advanced subject.  I've been developing software professionally for 2 decades.  From embedded systems where i was writing drivers in asm, to full-stack web-based enterprise systems.  But a few days of reading about cryptocurrency has my head spinning in a way I havent felt since my Numberical Methods course in college
 375 2014-12-02 10:27:48 <wumpus> but I doubt the subject matter is ready for 'legions of mediocre developers', if ever, it is extremely easy to shoot yourself in the foot by say losing private keys, or leaking them. of course, bitcoin companies also always need developers for the front-ends and such, which may be more suitable then (but then it's not really cryptocurrency specific...).
 376 2014-12-02 10:31:21 <wumpus> yes, it is pretty intimidating at first
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 378 2014-12-02 10:35:30 <Yuhjn> a search of dice.com for "bitcoin" yields 4 results, 3 of which are from the same company via cybercoders, and the 4th is 80k/year for "mid/senior java developer at Bitcoin Exchange
 379 2014-12-02 10:35:46 <Yuhjn> sry 70k/year
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 381 2014-12-02 10:41:03 <Luke-Jr> Yuhjn: Bitcoin jobs are likely to be word of mouth in most cases, I imagine.
 382 2014-12-02 10:41:26 <Luke-Jr> (but I might be biased, since I don't do employment)
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 384 2014-12-02 10:44:21 <blur3d> Hey, quick question regarding translations for bitcoin core, in src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.ts, what do the <location line="+3"/> parts represent?
 385 2014-12-02 10:45:07 <wumpus> blur3d: relative line numbers
 386 2014-12-02 10:45:35 <wumpus> blur3d: but if you want to work on translations don't mess with those files directly, use transifex
 387 2014-12-02 10:45:43 <Luke-Jr> blur3d: it's trying to distinguish the same string on multiple locations
 388 2014-12-02 10:45:59 <wumpus> yes it is for UIs to show the context of a string
 389 2014-12-02 10:46:09 <blur3d> wumpus: sure, I got that far. But most of them don’t reference a file. And why are some line values negative?
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 391 2014-12-02 10:46:53 <wumpus> blur3d: no clue; I've never really studied the file format in detail; maybe Qt has it documented somewhere
 392 2014-12-02 10:46:56 <blur3d> Ok, so basically it isn’t important. Any a string can be referenced in multiple places, and that makes it kind of useless
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 394 2014-12-02 10:47:41 <Luke-Jr> blur3d: if the same string is used multiple places, it might have 2 entries in the translations files, one for each line
 395 2014-12-02 10:47:55 <blur3d> wumpus Luke-Jr: k, cheers. I’ve created an account for transifex. I’ll look at it in more detail
 396 2014-12-02 10:48:04 <wumpus> in that case it can still be useful to show *one* context of the string to translators
 397 2014-12-02 10:48:20 <Luke-Jr> well, you don't need to know this stuff to translate - I'd suggest not trying to figure it out if that's your goal :p
 398 2014-12-02 10:48:24 <wumpus> we dropped the line numbers completely for a while and translators complained, so they value it somehow
 399 2014-12-02 10:49:21 <blur3d> I’m mostly just learning the project. I created a branch with a Window toorbar menu, with Minimize (since almost all Mac apps have this as standard). So I would need to get ‘&Window’ and ‘&Minimize’
 400 2014-12-02 10:49:58 <blur3d> yeah, I get how the context can be important - although I wouldn’t expect most translaters to be familiar with C++. I could be wrong
 401 2014-12-02 10:50:34 <sipa> i think it's context you're supposed to ignore as a translator?
 402 2014-12-02 10:51:21 <wumpus> blur3d: if your goal is just to update the english translation file for changes in the code, try 'make translate'
 403 2014-12-02 10:51:35 <wumpus> sipa: yes, out-of-context translations are so much funnier
 404 2014-12-02 10:51:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I guess not if translators complained when it was removed XD
 405 2014-12-02 10:51:51 <sipa> exactly
 406 2014-12-02 10:51:54 <wumpus> sipa: we should really use google translate!
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 409 2014-12-02 10:53:55 <Luke-Jr> I keep hearing people say to "explain like I'm 5", maybe we should have 5 year olds do the reviewing
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 411 2014-12-02 10:55:02 <paveljanik> I'll ask my daughter ;-)
 412 2014-12-02 10:55:20 <blur3d> Ok, I’ll see how I go. Thanks guys. If I work it all out, I might try update the bitcoin/doc/translation_process.md doc. Might just be me, but there are a fair number of new things to learn RE using translation
 413 2014-12-02 10:56:25 <sipa> blur3d: feel free!
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 607 2014-12-02 15:40:35 <jgarzik> +1 for inline assembly :)
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 609 2014-12-02 15:41:57 <gmaxwell> yea. I'm a big fan, may even be faster if it allows it to get inlined... though since it's 64-bit it'll be MSVC incompatible, which is a little sad.
 610 2014-12-02 15:42:44 <sipa> i have no clue about MSVC support... was the previous asm code somehow possible to get working in MSVC?
 611 2014-12-02 15:42:51 <gmaxwell> (MSFT decided that for 64-bit they were not going to support inline asm... apparently windows developers were disrupting msft's portability hopes by needlessly writing too much of their software in ASM.)
 612 2014-12-02 15:43:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, assuming someone adds yasm to their msvc setup.
 613 2014-12-02 15:43:17 <sipa> well, if MSFT doesn't like app developers writing ASM, they won't get any ASM...
 614 2014-12-02 15:43:25 <gmaxwell> instead they'd have to add GCC to it. :)
 615 2014-12-02 15:43:55 <gmaxwell> I am not arguing against it. Just making sure we know and are all okay with it. I certantly am okay with it.
 616 2014-12-02 15:44:01 <wumpus> ugh, my testnet node got in a "SOCKS5 connecting by4ec3pkia7s7wy2.onion" "ERROR: Proxy error: connection not allowed" loop, seemingly it doesn't realize the proxy error and keeps trying
 617 2014-12-02 15:44:51 <wumpus> not sure why TOR would return "connection not allowed" in the first place (it is specific to this onion, others work fine) but apparently it is possible
 618 2014-12-02 15:45:17 <gavinandresen> wumpus: qa-tests/rest.py is failing for me, and I don’t understand why it is succeeding for travis. The FORMAT_SEPARATOR changed from ‘/‘ to ‘.’ (I think)
 619 2014-12-02 15:45:42 <gmaxwell> wumpus: HS's can have their introductions authenticated for anti-dos purposes.. to connect you need a key in your config.
 620 2014-12-02 15:45:55 <wumpus> gavinandresen: has been fixed already, see latest commit
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 622 2014-12-02 15:46:01 <gmaxwell> (maybe there is a way to send the key over socks... not sure, never used the feature myself)
 623 2014-12-02 15:46:13 <gavinandresen> wumpus: cool
 624 2014-12-02 15:46:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: oh! that could be it
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 638 2014-12-02 15:53:37 <jgarzik> Semi-random:  Screw GMP, do libbignum
 639 2014-12-02 15:53:42 <jgarzik> and just use that
 640 2014-12-02 15:53:46 <jgarzik> purpose-built
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 642 2014-12-02 15:56:20 <sipa> jgarzik: after all currently open pull requests, libsecp256k1 basically _only_ uses GMP still for modular inverses
 643 2014-12-02 15:56:41 <jgarzik> yeah, been watching some of that work
 644 2014-12-02 15:57:00 <sipa> for everything else, it is already uses purpose-built bignum implementations (field and scalar) which do implicit modulo n and p respectively
 645 2014-12-02 15:57:11 <jgarzik> sipa, any other lingering areas using bignum, in the bigger bitcoin codebase?
 646 2014-12-02 15:57:19 <jgarzik> base58 and script have been converted
 647 2014-12-02 15:57:25 <sipa> jgarzik: we got rid of those a long time ago
 648 2014-12-02 15:57:34 <sipa> the bignum code in bitcoin is in the test dir!
 649 2014-12-02 15:58:13 <jgarzik> sipa, once that's in place, I can remove openssl from picocoin (libccoin)
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 656 2014-12-02 16:13:44 <heric_> Is there any way to do  `bitcoind sendtoaddress address amount` *without* sending the transaction on the network?
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 658 2014-12-02 16:13:57 <heric_> (I’d like to get the transaction, and push it over a tor connection)
 659 2014-12-02 16:14:03 <heric_> but i don’t want to run run the entire bitcoind thruogh tor
 660 2014-12-02 16:14:16 <wumpus> the reason that my testnet node keeps connecting to that onion: addrman.Attempt is only called if ConnectSocketByName/ConnectSocket succeeds,  which means the nLastTry is never updated, which means the nANow - addr.nLastTry < 600 logic in ThreadOpenConnections that is supposed to skip recently-failed nodes is not triggered
 661 2014-12-02 16:14:39 <heric_> So it’d be nice to generate the transaction, and not send it immediately, and programatically send it over tor
 662 2014-12-02 16:15:02 <sipa> heric_: createrawtransaction
 663 2014-12-02 16:15:02 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ah! I'd seen the behavior but ... not realized it was so stupid: I figured I just didn't know of enough peers.
 664 2014-12-02 16:15:15 <gmaxwell> wumpus: fix fix fix.
 665 2014-12-02 16:15:24 <heric_> sipa: Then I need to figure myself which inputs i should spend form?
 666 2014-12-02 16:15:30 <sipa> heric_: yes, unfortunately
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 668 2014-12-02 16:15:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I suppose we shouldn't update if we can't connect to the proxy at all though.
 669 2014-12-02 16:15:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that may *also* be the case, that it doesn't know any other peers
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 671 2014-12-02 16:16:12 <wumpus> after all it keeps selecting the same one
 672 2014-12-02 16:16:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ya, we'll need a way to distinguish between failing to connect to the proxy and proxy failures
 673 2014-12-02 16:16:51 <sipa> wumpus: hmm, that needs fixing
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 675 2014-12-02 16:17:33 <wumpus> currently it just returns the ubiquitous boolean, false means something failed :-)
 676 2014-12-02 16:18:17 <heric_> sipa: So I should call  `listuspent` to get a list of unspent, figure out which ones i want to spend from. Then createrawtransaction. Then call lockunspent on those unspent outputs. Then send the transaction over tor ?
 677 2014-12-02 16:18:25 <heric_> And how long until lockunspent expires?
 678 2014-12-02 16:18:28 <heric_> incase there was some error
 679 2014-12-02 16:18:31 <gmaxwell> quaternion errors.
 680 2014-12-02 16:18:39 <sipa> heric_: it expires when you restart your node
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 682 2014-12-02 16:18:43 <gmaxwell> heric_: restart of the software, or you manually unlocking it.
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 684 2014-12-02 16:18:54 <heric_> make sense
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 686 2014-12-02 16:19:10 <gmaxwell> Patches to support expiration time and persisting the locks would be eagerly reviewed.
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 688 2014-12-02 16:19:46 <gmaxwell> (e.g. lockunpent taking a duration, and if one is set persisting it in the wallet)
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 693 2014-12-02 16:21:14 <heric_> Is there any particular algorithm I should use to select the inputs? I’m thinking I should try minimize the amount of inputs i need? And given two suitable inputs, select the smaller one
 694 2014-12-02 16:21:23 <heric_> and base the fee on the amount of inputs i have?
 695 2014-12-02 16:21:52 <heric_> And all change should go to `getnewaddress`  ?
 696 2014-12-02 16:22:00 <gmaxwell> heric_: there is a getchangeaddress
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 698 2014-12-02 16:22:09 <heric_> What’s the difference?
 699 2014-12-02 16:22:23 <gmaxwell> (change addresses are special in that they'll prevent an extra recieved entry showing up in the transaction log, thats pretty much it)
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 702 2014-12-02 16:23:00 <Luke-Jr> heric_: it may be good to try to select in order to optimise fees and confirmation time
 703 2014-12-02 16:23:15 <Luke-Jr> eg, if the user wants it to confirm quick, select your oldest coins
 704 2014-12-02 16:23:50 <gmaxwell> heric_: As far a coin selection goes; I select a scriptpubkey with enough coins (if possible, otherwise ... more script pubkeys minimizing their count), and spend all the coins previously sent to that scriptpubkey (set).  Making change usefully large (or small enough to convert entirely to fee) is good.  You can base fee on the number of inputs.
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 707 2014-12-02 16:25:53 <heric_> This is starting to sound like a constrained optimization problem =P
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 709 2014-12-02 16:26:05 <sipa> it is
 710 2014-12-02 16:26:29 <heric_> Has anyone written a reusuable one i can feed my unspent inputs into ?
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 719 2014-12-02 16:35:04 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell: any idea about that travis failure on the inline asm PR?
 720 2014-12-02 16:35:31 <sipa> basically, if you compile with CFLAGS="", there is a linker error about not found functions
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 722 2014-12-02 16:36:02 <sipa> as if those two asm-using functions just got dropped
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 724 2014-12-02 16:38:54 <heric_> gmaxwell: If i wrote a function `bitcoind createsendtoaddress amount [lockInputs=false]`  is that something that would be accepted into core?
 725 2014-12-02 16:39:22 <heric_> Which would reuse `sendtoaddress` logic, but instead of sending the tx on the network, it would return it
 726 2014-12-02 16:40:05 <wumpus> so your goal is to then submit the transaction manually?
 727 2014-12-02 16:40:15 <wumpus> I don't like the name createsendtoaddress, but I like that idea
 728 2014-12-02 16:40:34 <heric_> Yeah, because I don’t want to bitcoind to submit the transaction
 729 2014-12-02 16:40:48 <heric_> Or the alternative would be to support sending transactions over tor
 730 2014-12-02 16:40:49 <gmaxwell> heric_: yes, likely. There will be nitpicking. :) e.g. it shoudl be a sendmany, and the name you propose is perhaps confusing. And lockinputs should be setup so it can be extended to take things like expiration.
 731 2014-12-02 16:41:17 <heric_> I don’t want to run my whole node behind tor, but i don’t want to reveal its location to the world
 732 2014-12-02 16:41:24 <heric_> Like, i don’t mind people knowing i run on node
 733 2014-12-02 16:41:29 <heric_> but i don’t want anyone to know which is mine
 734 2014-12-02 16:41:40 <gmaxwell> I've wanted that rpc before... but since I also like doing my own coin selection I haven't bothered.
 735 2014-12-02 16:41:44 <gmaxwell> heric_: also it shouldn't sign.
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 737 2014-12-02 16:41:59 <wumpus> heric_: be careful though; the wallet will automatically retransmit transactions that originate or go to it, you'll also want to disable that
 738 2014-12-02 16:42:00 <gmaxwell> the sequence should be create then sign then send.
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 740 2014-12-02 16:42:22 <heric_> What’s the motivation for unsigned?
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 742 2014-12-02 16:43:15 <sipa> heric_: perhaps the private keys are elsewhere
 743 2014-12-02 16:43:34 <sipa> by having both operations in independent RPCs you are free to use each where you want it
 744 2014-12-02 16:43:42 <heric_> I had no idea bitcoind supports watch addresses
 745 2014-12-02 16:43:52 <heric_> That could be useful
 746 2014-12-02 16:45:54 <wumpus> having the possibility to generate but not automatically submit transactions would also address https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4564 - but as said, be careful with the current resubmit logic in the wallet, it reveals you as you'll be the only one broadcasting your transactions multiple times
 747 2014-12-02 16:46:04 <gmaxwell> heric_: making this change will require a fix of some stupidity in the transaction creation logic. Right now it stupidly iterates over signing in the solver instead of knowing the size in advance. This is silly, since the maximum size of a signature is well known.
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 750 2014-12-02 16:47:23 <gmaxwell> wumpus: that logic could be pretty substantially improved... e.g. keeping track of if we've heard the transactions from peers we didn't give it to, and if so being much less agressive about retransmission.
 751 2014-12-02 16:48:03 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed; that too
 752 2014-12-02 16:48:09 <heric_> Maybe instead I should just create a function which you pass in a list of inputs and a list of how much you want to send — and it suggests a set of inputs to use...
 753 2014-12-02 16:48:29 <gmaxwell> And if we implement peer rotation then we could plausably never retrainsmit to a peer we've already given them to, which should greatly reduce the distinguishability.
 754 2014-12-02 16:48:30 <wumpus> wha, I wonder how that retransmission logic interacts with watch-only
 755 2014-12-02 16:48:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I thought I checked that, and we'd retransmit them.
 756 2014-12-02 16:49:50 <gmaxwell> heric_: it should be a fairly small change, the coin control gui code already has logic to gauge the signature size... so replacing the signing loop with that and doing a bit of a refactor
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 759 2014-12-02 16:50:26 <heric_> Or the other option for a patch: a configuration option to disable sending transactions (including retransmissions)
 760 2014-12-02 16:50:42 <heric_> So you can use the normal api if you want, and it’ll never send the transaction on the network
 761 2014-12-02 16:51:47 <heric_> So you then just do:  bitcoind getrawtransaction `bitcoind sendtoaddress …..`
 762 2014-12-02 16:51:59 <heric_> And you know your bitcoin node is never going to broadcast its own transactions
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 764 2014-12-02 16:52:43 <heric_> (and then submit them over tor, or to bc.info )
 765 2014-12-02 16:53:32 <wumpus> heric_: that could work too (except that you'd want to use gettransaction, not getrawtransaction to get wallet tx data)
 766 2014-12-02 16:54:08 <wumpus> getrawtransaction won't find a transaction that isn't in the mempool <:
 767 2014-12-02 16:54:14 <heric_> Ah
 768 2014-12-02 16:54:55 <gmaxwell> heric_: I'd support a switch to disable _re_transmission, but for what you're describing I'd rather do the create+sign+send as thats compatible with offline signing and more leak safe.
 769 2014-12-02 16:55:06 <wumpus> it does sound more fool proof than requiring use of a different RPC call
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 771 2014-12-02 16:55:17 <gmaxwell> As there are likely ways to distinguish if a node _knows_ about a transaction that would take a lot of digging to be sure has been made safe.
 772 2014-12-02 16:55:17 <wumpus> well, that's good too, but I mean what if you accidentally use the normal call
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 775 2014-12-02 16:55:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but it won't even enter your own mempool in this case
 776 2014-12-02 16:55:52 <gmaxwell> (also the create+sign+send is compatible with offline signing)
 777 2014-12-02 16:56:06 <wumpus> so your node doesn't know about it, only the wallet does
 778 2014-12-02 16:56:39 <wumpus> information from node to wallet would flow one-way
 779 2014-12-02 16:56:51 <gmaxwell> wumpus: okay, fair. Hm. I suppose sendrawtransaction would still work?
 780 2014-12-02 16:57:00 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sure
 781 2014-12-02 16:57:14 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I'd imagine that option would only affect the wallet code
 782 2014-12-02 16:57:30 <gmaxwell> and retransmission would be disabled completely, though you could sendrawtransaction to resend perhaps? (I don't recall if we made that work or not, it didn't originally)
 783 2014-12-02 16:57:38 hearn has joined
 784 2014-12-02 16:57:47 <wumpus> yes, that has been fixed and works now
 785 2014-12-02 16:58:07 <gmaxwell> okay I support this, it sounds like a small and self contained change.
 786 2014-12-02 16:58:25 <gmaxwell> I still want a create+sign+send cycle for things like offline signing, but you're right... this is simpler and safer.
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 788 2014-12-02 17:00:55 <wumpus> right, that would also be useful, but for a slightly different set of usecases
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 790 2014-12-02 17:03:24 <kanzure> i have a usecase related to offline signing and coin selection that i may be implementing soon
 791 2014-12-02 17:04:17 <kanzure> *offline signing but online coin selection
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 795 2014-12-02 17:06:43 <gmaxwell> yea, wrt a create* should also have an argument to allow it to sepend watched coins.
 796 2014-12-02 17:07:44 <kanzure> should i be opening an issue about that, and if so what should i put in the issue?
 797 2014-12-02 17:07:53 <kanzure> "i am going to be doing x" just doesn't sound like an issue/bug report :P
 798 2014-12-02 17:08:36 <gmaxwell> kanzure: you can do that. Creates a chance for people to go {oh make sure to cover X}' as I've already done.
 799 2014-12-02 17:08:44 <gmaxwell> You don't have to do that.
 800 2014-12-02 17:08:46 <heric_> Also a total unrelated feature request, being able to send an amount of money which *includes* txfees
 801 2014-12-02 17:08:57 <heric_> Most online services end up subtracting a constant 100 bits
 802 2014-12-02 17:09:01 <gmaxwell> In any case, if you write the code at a minimum I'll give it review and testing.
 803 2014-12-02 17:09:02 <heric_> It’s a bit unclean
 804 2014-12-02 17:09:35 <gmaxwell> heric_: yea, there is a cozz gui change about doing that.  I'm not sure how to best handle that in the RPC.
 805 2014-12-02 17:09:42 <kanzure> gmaxwell: i sort of through out all my mental state about offline-signing-but-online-coin-selection, so it will take me some time to write up an issue (so don't expect it in the next hour)
 806 2014-12-02 17:09:54 <kanzure> *threw
 807 2014-12-02 17:10:05 <heric_> I guess I’d just like a flag   amountIncludesFees or something
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 809 2014-12-02 17:10:12 <gmaxwell> One way would be to agument the values e.g. a value of -amount. means that it can take fees out.. but thats ... also unclean.
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 811 2014-12-02 17:10:32 <heric_> So I can send 1.03 BTC to you, and you will recieve slightly less
 812 2014-12-02 17:10:42 <heric_> Also, i find it incredibly annoying now sweeping my huge wallets
 813 2014-12-02 17:10:51 <gmaxwell> also there is a question about how to handle that in a sendmany. Presumably spread it equally and assign any rounding error to the first one?
 814 2014-12-02 17:10:53 <heric_> I call getbalance, and i can’t send that amount of money
 815 2014-12-02 17:11:22 <gmaxwell> heric_: thats the primary motivation for the cozz gui change I'm referring to, I believe.
 816 2014-12-02 17:11:27 <heric_> I have hundreds/thousands of unspent inputs, so the fees i’d need to pay are considerable. So it’s hard to even eyeball it
 817 2014-12-02 17:11:44 <kanzure> oh right, batch coin selection should probably be a separate issue too (another thing i forgot about) (but it seems to be separate from offline-signing-but-online-coin-selection)
 818 2014-12-02 17:11:45 <gmaxwell> Though maybe you can't send it anyways becaue your wallet is full of dust and the resulting txn would be too big.
 819 2014-12-02 17:11:59 <heric_> Yeah, i run into that
 820 2014-12-02 17:12:27 <heric_> I’ve got over 1000 one satoshi unspent outputs
 821 2014-12-02 17:12:29 <kanzure> batch coin selection would be useful for offline-signing because if you are offine-signing then you are probably signing more than one transaction at once, and it would be weird to not plan all transactions simultaneously to get the best spends
 822 2014-12-02 17:12:30 <gmaxwell> :(  the dust sucks.
 823 2014-12-02 17:12:39 <gmaxwell> heric_: use dustbgone.
 824 2014-12-02 17:12:56 <gmaxwell> (to give those things away to a coinjoining discard thing)
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 826 2014-12-02 17:13:52 <kanzure> although batch coin selection is way out of scope for anything remotely related to bitcoin-qt things...
 827 2014-12-02 17:14:46 <gmaxwell> kanzure: I dunno about that.
 828 2014-12-02 17:15:09 <gmaxwell> We have a todo someplace about batching. It's basically required for coinjoin support. ... and it's not a huge jump from sendmany.
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 830 2014-12-02 17:15:22 <kanzure> oh there's a sendmany. hm.
 831 2014-12-02 17:15:25 <kanzure> okay then
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 844 2014-12-02 17:24:55 <wumpus> <heric_> Also a total unrelated feature request, being able to send an amount of money which *includes* txfees <- there is actually a pull for that by coz
 845 2014-12-02 17:25:02 <wumpus> or maybe he closed it because no one cared
 846 2014-12-02 17:25:28 <heric_> Well, I’d use it if it existed =)
 847 2014-12-02 17:25:53 <wumpus> well it exists, be sure to try to find it and test it, it would really help development a lot if people tested the features they wanted
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 849 2014-12-02 17:26:17 <gmaxwell> I cared.  I just want to make it work for rpcs too. :)
 850 2014-12-02 17:26:18 <wumpus> otherwise yeah the pulls stay open for months, people get tired of rebasing and eventually give up.
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 852 2014-12-02 17:26:45 <heric_> Yeah, i only use rpc
 853 2014-12-02 17:27:08 <wumpus> I guess it wouldn't be too hard to make it work for rpc too
 854 2014-12-02 17:27:14 <wumpus> though we have an argument passing problem there
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 857 2014-12-02 17:28:33 <wumpus> could add just another boolean argument but the API is not getting cleaner
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 860 2014-12-02 17:31:04 <wumpus> anyhow the pull is here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4331
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 862 2014-12-02 17:31:39 <wumpus> it does actually add RPC functionality too
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 882 2014-12-02 17:54:34 <enigma> can someone help me understand sidechains
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 884 2014-12-02 17:55:29 <enigma> how does the coin transfer from main chain to sidechain
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 887 2014-12-02 17:56:33 <enigma> I read the concept of compact SPV proof but can't quite understand how it works
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 923 2014-12-02 18:25:54 <kruug> Using gitian to build, it's currently hung on the autogen.sh part.  Been that way for a few hours.  Is that normal?  How can I tell if it's actually borked if still working?
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 933 2014-12-02 18:42:20 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in case you care to respond; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=880573.0
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1005 2014-12-02 20:06:31 <jonasschnelli> am i right that serialized hashes (protocol) are big-endian notation?
1006 2014-12-02 20:07:07 <sipa> well... it's complicated
1007 2014-12-02 20:07:23 <sipa> bitcoin pretty much treats the output of cryptographic primitives as byte arrays
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1009 2014-12-02 20:07:44 <sipa> and for example sha256 internally uses big endian, but ripemd160 uses little endian
1010 2014-12-02 20:07:47 <sipa> but that doesn't really matter
1011 2014-12-02 20:08:08 <sipa> when bitcoin however interprets a byte array as a number, it's done as little endian
1012 2014-12-02 20:08:36 <jonasschnelli> sipa. thanks. clear so far.
1013 2014-12-02 20:08:50 <sipa> and there may be exceptions i'm forgetting
1014 2014-12-02 20:09:53 <jonasschnelli> okay. while writing a rest test i wasn't sure anymore because i got a sha256 in big endian... but seams to be right.
1015 2014-12-02 20:10:36 <sipa> ah, when numbers are printed for human consumption, they're big-endian hex (because that's how we write numbers...)
1016 2014-12-02 20:11:11 <sipa> so for example for block hashes
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1018 2014-12-02 20:11:30 <sipa> bitcoin treats the output of sha256 as a litte-endian number
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1020 2014-12-02 20:11:37 <sipa> and then prints it as a big-endian hex out
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1022 2014-12-02 20:11:50 <sipa> so the requires '0' bits are technically at the end of the hash function output array
1023 2014-12-02 20:12:10 <harding> jonasschnelli: not guaranteed to be correct (I think it's only been reviewed by Sergio Damian Lerner), but possibly helpful: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#hash-byte-order
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1029 2014-12-02 20:18:54 <jonasschnelli> sipa ... hmm..
1030 2014-12-02 20:19:11 <sipa> i think the bottom lime is: there are no rules :)
1031 2014-12-02 20:19:21 <jonasschnelli> i have a CDataStream and stream << chainActive.Tip()->GetBlockHash()
1032 2014-12-02 20:19:48 <jonasschnelli> this ends up in a uint256 big endian representation of the hash? am i right?
1033 2014-12-02 20:20:06 <sipa> the hash is a byte array, and it ends up as a byte array in the stream
1034 2014-12-02 20:20:23 <sipa> some pieces of the code will interpret that byte array in little endian, and some in big endian
1035 2014-12-02 20:20:38 <sipa> if you want to see it as the number that is being compared to the target, it's little endian
1036 2014-12-02 20:20:52 <sipa> if you want to see from the point of view of the sha256 function, it's big endian
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1040 2014-12-02 20:22:41 <jonasschnelli> sipa. thanks. let me try
1041 2014-12-02 20:22:43 <sipa> jonasschnelli: maybe this answers you question: that statement will put the 'leading zeroes' in the blockchash at the end
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1047 2014-12-02 20:27:03 <jonasschnelli> harding thanks for the link!
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1051 2014-12-02 20:29:40 <harding> jonasschnelli: My pleasure.  If you use it and see anything that could be improved, let me know or click the Issue or Edit links on the bottom left.  Byte order is one of the most frequently asked questions I see.
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1053 2014-12-02 20:30:50 <jonasschnelli> harding documentations looks pretty clean. Will read it in details soon. I always used https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx
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1064 2014-12-02 20:37:23 <harding> jonasschnelli: if you're looking for the serialized tx format, this may have more details (and more links to relevant information): https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#raw-transaction-format
1065 2014-12-02 20:39:58 <jonasschnelli> harding: thanks. Ser. tx is clear to me now... i'm asking because i'm writing a REST alternative to bip64
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1068 2014-12-02 20:43:59 <harding> jonasschnelli: Oh, cool.  In case it helps, our P2P docs in general are here:  https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#p2p-network  I'm guessing you know more about the current state of the REST stuff than I do---I'm waiting for it to settle down before documenting it.
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1071 2014-12-02 20:44:33 <jgarzik> jonasschnelli, excellent
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1073 2014-12-02 20:45:29 <jonasschnelli> harding simple rest doc started here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5329 but still a open pull and unfinished. better wait.
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1075 2014-12-02 20:46:13 <jonasschnelli> REST getutxos is almost done, verifying it currently with some qa/rpc tests.
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1078 2014-12-02 20:48:19 <harding> jonasschnelli: that looks a whole lot simpler than I expected given the amount of conversation about it around here lately.
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1082 2014-12-02 20:49:49 <jonasschnelli> harding: it will probably grow a little bit in future
1083 2014-12-02 20:50:01 <jonasschnelli> actually it's very basic
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1086 2014-12-02 20:51:22 <sipa> it's just RPC without authentication and encoding overhead
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1141 2014-12-02 22:01:37 <lechuga_> sanity check: mempool can grow unbounded right?
1142 2014-12-02 22:01:40 <lechuga_> looks so from code
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1144 2014-12-02 22:01:58 <sipa> yes, but requires spending unspent outputs
1145 2014-12-02 22:02:12 <sipa> but, yes
1146 2014-12-02 22:02:28 <lechuga_> thx
1147 2014-12-02 22:03:25 <snewpy> is this the right place to ask for help with what is wrong with the construction of a raw transaction (with a p2sh multisig input)?
1148 2014-12-02 22:05:28 <lechuga_> sure
1149 2014-12-02 22:06:11 <snewpy> it's a testnet transaction, it gets rejected when submitting it with: ERROR: CScriptCheck() : cc9fa6e9ce353a857ad9b690ef46fb82fde81aa58d58563f1b34ca21ea9b591f VerifySignature failed
1150 2014-12-02 22:06:20 <snewpy> 0100000001ecc9fa8cc94462926ed69c5033edf4f9a6b770cd1fe39ba474c98fbe607d7d3201000000fd450100483045022100ce7da142f1ae72e312d02e1c43844d0e58110aa3369d78597371449bd3534ff502203a23b95663ef8c51a06477c11f5c25189f4110655ba3ee7c4cfd10b75e2fbcef01473044022022ba1957640c16573ae34f37a9b6f7250152214c0f9267165cf1e178dda5fedf022074beae6c39bbd135ef15b4639c9dd4fef8ecbb900507b0676dfe59e33659341801473044022020a9b341be27cbec8dd55349859693f64edd8368f994569a1e4ae7860852
1151 2014-12-02 22:06:20 <snewpy> f74702201ed7ebf54564c4a1ea090aa7b15cd71361bcbe73547eb1d40a63b1cafff396b0014c69532103a1d9faa8b5d792fc1e6ddcd4b17747764d7c1a289b49d0aa2c6510b61b2bb1a42102b47fd7af83a2c4723d6c81ce4ae50855e8f4392d572d659042abf8e5782d61c32102bb9399c79930fee2e8da453420958faeaeb2dbd3ad18c8a5ee621a93a2dddb3d53aeffffffff01706f9800000000001976a9141f42b6ddaf881b2d2095073a5cb4c29e4eb08eb488ac00000000
1152 2014-12-02 22:06:28 <lechuga_> pastebin is a nice tool :)
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1154 2014-12-02 22:07:16 <snewpy> sorry, http://pastebin.com/wRf8DPZy
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1170 2014-12-02 22:24:03 <lechuga_> snewpy: can u link to code where u compute sighash and sign?
1171 2014-12-02 22:24:41 <snewpy> lechuga_: i'm using pycoin, trying to read the tea leaves because it's pretty sparse on documentation... i'll pastebin the code
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1173 2014-12-02 22:26:25 <snewpy> http://pastebin.com/wkaUGLfV
1174 2014-12-02 22:26:38 <snewpy> the keys in the script are the actual keys in that transaction
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1177 2014-12-02 22:27:28 <sipa> sec, syncing my node
1178 2014-12-02 22:27:32 <sipa> i'll check
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1180 2014-12-02 22:29:59 <snewpy> thx
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1185 2014-12-02 22:33:51 <sipa> it's using some inputs that i don't have
1186 2014-12-02 22:34:25 <lechuga_> https://testnet3.toshi.io/api/v0/transactions/327d7d60be8fc974a49be31fcd70b7a6f9f4ed33509cd66e926244c98cfac9ec.hex
1187 2014-12-02 22:34:59 <sipa> oh! testnet!
1188 2014-12-02 22:36:10 <snewpy> yes :)
1189 2014-12-02 22:36:54 <sipa> you can try to compile your node with #5394
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1191 2014-12-02 22:38:45 <snewpy> ok, i will try that now
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1198 2014-12-02 22:50:55 <sipa> Script evaluated without error but finished with a false/empty top stack element
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1201 2014-12-02 22:51:35 <snewpy> so the sigs are ok, but the script is bad?
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1203 2014-12-02 22:51:47 <sipa> it's a new standardness rule
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1205 2014-12-02 22:52:33 <sipa> what's the last entry on the scriptSig?
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1207 2014-12-02 22:53:29 <sipa> what's the scriptPubKey?
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1209 2014-12-02 22:54:30 <sipa> ah. it's p2sh
1210 2014-12-02 22:54:41 <snewpy> right
1211 2014-12-02 22:55:05 <snewpy> it's a 3-of-3 multisig
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1213 2014-12-02 22:55:43 <sipa> this is bad; it looks perfectly normal
1214 2014-12-02 22:55:52 <sipa> let me investigate
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1216 2014-12-02 22:56:11 <snewpy> that's what I don't understand... it looks ok from my (very untrained) eye, but obviously something's not right
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1220 2014-12-02 22:57:29 <sipa> oh, it just failed
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1222 2014-12-02 22:58:13 <lechuga_> my guesses would be the redeem script wasnt used for computing the signhash -or- signatures and pubkeys are out of order?
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1226 2014-12-02 22:58:36 <sipa> right, there's no problem in the script logic - it just fails
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1228 2014-12-02 22:58:45 <sipa> so the signature/pubkey combination isn't valid
1229 2014-12-02 22:59:28 <snewpy> so the sigs dont match the pubkey (or are signing the wrong thing)?
1230 2014-12-02 22:59:36 <lechuga_> nod
1231 2014-12-02 23:00:13 <sipa> indeed
1232 2014-12-02 23:01:00 <snewpy> so the redeem script is OP_3 [pubkey1] [pubkey2] [pubkey3] OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG... this is right, yeah?
1233 2014-12-02 23:01:51 <sipa> yes
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1236 2014-12-02 23:02:36 <snewpy> and then the scriptSig is OP_0 [sig1] [sig2] [sig3] [redeemScript]
1237 2014-12-02 23:03:03 <sipa> looks correct
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1268 2014-12-02 23:11:07 <snewpy> thanks very much for the help.. i'll keep hacking away and see if i can find the problem
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1274 2014-12-02 23:14:14  is now known as Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Guest9845
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1277 2014-12-02 23:14:22 <snewpy> sipa: #5394 is awesome! :)
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1305 2014-12-02 23:28:54 <AdrianG>  #bitcoin-dev
1306 2014-12-02 23:28:57 <AdrianG> oops.
1307 2014-12-02 23:29:00 <sipa> answer is: they just did
1308 2014-12-02 23:29:08 <AdrianG> hired someone?
1309 2014-12-02 23:29:21 <AdrianG> i saw an add for a security auditor
1310 2014-12-02 23:29:25 <AdrianG> ad*
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