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  25 2014-12-03 00:40:04 <blur3d> I’m working on a draft update to doc/translation_process.md, to generally make it easier for new comers to get started. If anyone would like to quickly read the draft and give feedback. https://gist.github.com/blakejakopovic/8d2ead05fd3f79059d97 (the current is at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/translation_process.md)
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  85 2014-12-03 02:02:48 <phantomcircuit> leveldb seems to spend a lot of time doing mmap stuff
  86 2014-12-03 02:03:15 <phantomcircuit> i haven't actually looked too closely but i kind of suspect there are significant gains to be had with a custom db
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  95 2014-12-03 02:15:59 <phantomcircuit> oh wait nvm i have txindex=1
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 122 2014-12-03 03:22:42 <phantomcircuit> so this is kind of interesting
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 124 2014-12-03 03:22:55 <phantomcircuit> i modified this client with a very recent block as the last checkpoint
 125 2014-12-03 03:23:15 <phantomcircuit> but reindex with txindex is still taking quite a bit for the last blocks
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 156 2014-12-03 04:25:37 <crmarsh> I'm interested in programmatically querying the blockchain on my local machine--can anyone give me some pointers to get started? Would be much appreciated.
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 158 2014-12-03 04:28:07 <Luke-Jr> crmarsh: the blockchain is not a database that can simply be queried
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 160 2014-12-03 04:28:59 <Luke-Jr> so be more specific
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 164 2014-12-03 04:31:37 <crmarsh> Luke-Jr: sorry, I mean that I want to get a local copy of the blockchain on my machine in an encoding that I can interact with programmatically... e.g., if I were to download the most recent bootstrap.dat file and try to read the $n$ most recent blocks from it with a Python script
 165 2014-12-03 04:32:19 <Luke-Jr> crmarsh: that doesn't make sense. do what with it programmatically?
 166 2014-12-03 04:32:29 <Luke-Jr> and why just the most recent blocks?
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 170 2014-12-03 04:35:46 <crmarsh> Luke-Jr: not necessarily the most recent blocks, just as an example use case. What I'm asking is probably trivial: I just want a local copy of the blockchain on my computer and some way to read it so that I could build, e.g., a block explorer.
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 173 2014-12-03 04:37:59 <Luke-Jr> crmarsh: then you need to create a database with the data and indexes for a block explorer.
 174 2014-12-03 04:38:19 <Luke-Jr> which won't make anything else necessarily any easier
 175 2014-12-03 04:38:56 <Luke-Jr> the database you need to build for a block explorer is usually something like 1 TB using traditional database engines IIRC
 176 2014-12-03 04:39:03 <Luke-Jr> I think BitPay's Insight does that
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 180 2014-12-03 04:43:34 <crmarsh> Luke-Jr: okay, thanks for the tips
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 184 2014-12-03 04:55:15 <blur3d> Luke-Jr: From what I learned yesterday, I drafted an updated doc/translation_process.md. If you want to take a look and let me how it looks. https://gist.github.com/blakejakopovic/8d2ead05fd3f79059d97 (the current is at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/translation_process.md). If it’s ok, I’ll submit a PR.
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 188 2014-12-03 05:00:20 <Luke-Jr> blur3d: just submit a PR; you can revise it later based on comments
 189 2014-12-03 05:00:40 <blur3d> Luke-Jr: Ok.
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 206 2014-12-03 05:15:34 <kruug> what files are at https://bitcoincore.org/depends-sources/sdks ?
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 232 2014-12-03 06:09:52 <lechuga_> Luke-Jr: currently 320G for toshi
 233 2014-12-03 06:10:08 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: ?
 234 2014-12-03 06:10:21 <lechuga_> <Luke-Jr> the database you need to build for a block explorer is usually something like 1 TB using traditional database engines IIRC
 235 2014-12-03 06:10:41 <lechuga_> but it could be trimmed significantly
 236 2014-12-03 06:10:44 <phantomcircuit> wat
 237 2014-12-03 06:10:48 <lechuga_> w/sufficient effort
 238 2014-12-03 06:11:02 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: keyword traditional db engines :P
 239 2014-12-03 06:11:10 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: I have an index down to like 2 GB :p
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 242 2014-12-03 06:12:31 <lechuga_> postgres is pretty traditional no?
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 248 2014-12-03 06:22:45 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 249 2014-12-03 06:22:56 <phantomcircuit> gotta love stuff that fails to pipeline remote requests
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 291 2014-12-03 07:15:26 <Luke-Jr> reminder to self: make -j is bad for bitcoin core
 292 2014-12-03 07:15:42 <lewellyn> heh.
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 294 2014-12-03 07:16:45 <gmaxwell> you don't have 64 gigs of ram?
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 300 2014-12-03 07:17:30 <CodeShark> anyone here have much experience with code signing on OS X?
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 302 2014-12-03 07:17:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, my system maxes out at 16 GB. which is usually okay.
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 304 2014-12-03 07:17:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: limiting -jN to my core count never is an issue
 305 2014-12-03 07:18:56 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure -j9 is faster regardless of RAM, anyway
 306 2014-12-03 07:19:27 <Luke-Jr> ironically, the main benefit I get from -j<null> is having the "CC" prints done before any warnings/errors print :p
 307 2014-12-03 07:19:28 <lewellyn> only if you have ~8 cores.
 308 2014-12-03 07:19:46 <Luke-Jr> maybe there's a way to get make to silence those altogether
 309 2014-12-03 07:20:00 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: 4 cores with hyperthreading
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 311 2014-12-03 07:20:31 <lewellyn> 9 isn't going to be as useful as 7, for most codebases, in that scenario
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 314 2014-12-03 07:20:44 <lewellyn> i've learned this a few times with my i7.
 315 2014-12-03 07:21:07 * Luke-Jr ponders if there's a good way to default this
 316 2014-12-03 07:21:18 <lewellyn> it seems fakeN-1 is slightly more effective than fakeN.
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 318 2014-12-03 07:21:42 <lewellyn> most build systems will choose -j appropriately :P
 319 2014-12-03 07:21:59 <lewellyn> it's 2014. stop building by hand! ;)
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 328 2014-12-03 07:26:17 <paveljanik> lewellyn: but the build system can't guess the workload affordable on the host system.
 329 2014-12-03 07:26:38 <paveljanik> it is nonsense to let allow the build system itself to choose the appropriate -j n.
 330 2014-12-03 07:26:57 <paveljanik> But it should allow to specify any n an work with it.
 331 2014-12-03 07:27:35 <paveljanik> some people prefer to build with nice make -j1...
 332 2014-12-03 07:28:45 <paveljanik> of course you can argue that people should not build on such systems, but...
 333 2014-12-03 07:28:49 <lewellyn> paveljanik: many build systems choose a "sane" default that's overridden.
 334 2014-12-03 07:29:01 <lewellyn> er that's easily overridden
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 338 2014-12-03 07:32:19 <Luke-Jr> um
 339 2014-12-03 07:32:46 <Luke-Jr> why does getrawmempool have "currentpriority" and such, that have zero apparant relationship with the actual tx priority? O.o
 340 2014-12-03 07:33:18 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: I've never seen any build system choose -j for you
 341 2014-12-03 07:34:00 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: i've used a number of them.
 342 2014-12-03 07:34:58 <phantomcircuit> lots of them will select the number of cores you have
 343 2014-12-03 07:35:02 <phantomcircuit> i've never seen one select -j
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 360 2014-12-03 08:02:26 <Luke-Jr> any discussion lately about moving the ML off SF, and where? somewhat annoying I can't send to it atm..
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 364 2014-12-03 08:06:05 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark still OSX codesigning questions? i might be able to help
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 381 2014-12-03 08:27:32 <sipa> phantomcircuit: re very recent checkpoint patched client: what version and how recent blocks?
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 385 2014-12-03 08:37:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, head
 386 2014-12-03 08:37:57 <phantomcircuit> blocks in the 300k range
 387 2014-12-03 08:38:09 <phantomcircuit> realized i had txindex on and a patch that calls mlockall
 388 2014-12-03 08:38:29 <phantomcircuit> im guessing txindex causes leveldb activity to increase substantially...
 389 2014-12-03 08:41:42 <sipa> yes, all db writes are cached and batched somewhat now
 390 2014-12-03 08:41:48 <sipa> except txindex
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 398 2014-12-03 08:51:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: prioritisetransaction test: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5414
 399 2014-12-03 08:52:24 cbeams has joined
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 402 2014-12-03 08:53:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: very nice!
 403 2014-12-03 08:53:33 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, it came out uglier than I had hoped - needs a bunch of extensions
 404 2014-12-03 08:54:10 <wumpus> I'll have a look, but in general ugliness isn't that relevant for tests, a test is always better than no test
 405 2014-12-03 08:54:28 Eagle[TM] has joined
 406 2014-12-03 08:54:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the ugliness is in having to extend CreateNewBlock and getblocktemplate for it
 407 2014-12-03 08:55:00 <wumpus> eh if you have to change core code for an rpc test that's not really acceptable
 408 2014-12-03 08:55:02 <Luke-Jr> right now, there's no way for RPC clients to see the priority or adjusted fee
 409 2014-12-03 08:55:26 <Luke-Jr> and getblocktemplate caches its results
 410 2014-12-03 08:55:35 <CodeShark> hi
 411 2014-12-03 08:55:44 <CodeShark> argh - wrong window :p
 412 2014-12-03 08:55:59 <Luke-Jr> could force GBT to ignore the cache by mining a new block.. but that changes the priorities :<
 413 2014-12-03 08:56:15 <Luke-Jr> (and then we'd need a way to have a transaction in the mempool that isn't mined..)
 414 2014-12-03 08:56:47 <wumpus> yes, we'll need to think about how to do this, but this makes it much harder to merge
 415 2014-12-03 08:57:06 <wumpus> well, no hurry
 416 2014-12-03 08:57:16 <Luke-Jr> right
 417 2014-12-03 08:58:04 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 418 2014-12-03 08:58:26 <CodeShark> wow - the whole directory structure of the project has changed!
 419 2014-12-03 08:58:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
 420 2014-12-03 08:58:53 <Luke-Jr> speaking of that, what's the core/ rename waiting on at this point?
 421 2014-12-03 08:59:04 xenog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 422 2014-12-03 08:59:35 <wumpus> yes we've made big strides in that regard
 423 2014-12-03 08:59:53 xenog has joined
 424 2014-12-03 08:59:55 <wumpus> although the biggest offender hasn't changed, main.cpp, is still a monolithic mess
 425 2014-12-03 09:00:03 <CodeShark> lol - it's starting to have a vague semblance of modularity...but just vague :)
 426 2014-12-03 09:00:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: post-0.10 sanity
 427 2014-12-03 09:00:22 <sipa> Luke-Jr: can't prioritisetx flush the gbt cache (haven't looked at the code yet, this may not be relevant)
 428 2014-12-03 09:00:30 <wumpus> CodeShark: the consensus code is starting to look much nicer, which is what it's all about anyway
 429 2014-12-03 09:00:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: err, I don't think we really should do a release with that? :/
 430 2014-12-03 09:00:45 uber2 has joined
 431 2014-12-03 09:01:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hmm, that might be a good idea
 432 2014-12-03 09:01:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm just afraid of regressions - moving around things this close before the release may say break the build system on some obscure platforms
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 435 2014-12-03 09:01:52 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: IMO releasing with a file named 'core' is like releasing with a file named 'C:\'
 436 2014-12-03 09:02:38 <CodeShark> heh
 437 2014-12-03 09:02:40 <wumpus> ah yes, doesn't the linux kernel automatically generate that file on a crash?
 438 2014-12-03 09:02:45 <Luke-Jr> right
 439 2014-12-03 09:03:04 nglpx1 has joined
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 441 2014-12-03 09:03:16 <CodeShark> core really means core structures
 442 2014-12-03 09:03:31 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: my PR renames it to 'primitives'
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 444 2014-12-03 09:04:20 <lewellyn> aww. core -> structs would have been a TOTALLY confusing-to-nobody rename! ;)
 445 2014-12-03 09:04:47 <CodeShark> specifically it refers to the basic data structures comprising the blockchain
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 447 2014-12-03 09:05:23 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: lots of good options we could shed paint over for days
 448 2014-12-03 09:05:27 <CodeShark> lol
 449 2014-12-03 09:05:34 Logicwax has quit (Quit: rm -rf /)
 450 2014-12-03 09:05:43 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: there was a hint of sarcasm there. i think it got stripped with the evil bit.
 451 2014-12-03 09:05:52 <Luke-Jr> :P
 452 2014-12-03 09:09:04 tarantillo_ has joined
 453 2014-12-03 09:10:34 <kgk> quick question, because I think I'm doing it wrong
 454 2014-12-03 09:10:39 <kgk> are hashes all sent as little-endian?
 455 2014-12-03 09:11:20 <kgk> e.g. block hashes, transaction hashes, merkle root, etc.
 456 2014-12-03 09:11:25 <CodeShark> both :p
 457 2014-12-03 09:11:28 Lightsword has quit (Quit: Lightsword)
 458 2014-12-03 09:11:28 <CodeShark> it's really annoying
 459 2014-12-03 09:11:37 <kgk> sigh lol. all my code is wrong *facepalm*
 460 2014-12-03 09:12:05 <kgk> thx :)
 461 2014-12-03 09:13:36 <CodeShark> I don't quite understand what the reasoning was behind flipping the byte order before checking PoW
 462 2014-12-03 09:15:43 <kgk> sshhhh don't question. praise be satoshi
 463 2014-12-03 09:15:48 <CodeShark> lol
 464 2014-12-03 09:16:19 <wumpus> it doesn't matter that much what would be the reasoning, he had to choose something, and whatever he would have chosen people would be wondering forever afterward why :)
 465 2014-12-03 09:16:40 <CodeShark> well, the problem isn't the choice - it's the lack of global consistency
 466 2014-12-03 09:16:47 <CodeShark> it's the mixed endianness that's annoying
 467 2014-12-03 09:17:40 <CodeShark> it's stored one way in one data structure but represented the other way on another data structure
 468 2014-12-03 09:18:56 <Luke-Jr> kgk: hashes aren't numbers. but they're byteflipped :P
 469 2014-12-03 09:19:15 <kgk> lol #justbecause
 470 2014-12-03 09:19:24 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: reasoning? "let's just as the bignum library to interpret this data as a number" :P
 471 2014-12-03 09:19:28 <wumpus> maybe he just did it to give people some irregularitities to wonder and complain about <:
 472 2014-12-03 09:19:36 <CodeShark> there is a slight issue with the choice, though, since OpenSSL uses most-significant-byte-first as do DER, etc...
 473 2014-12-03 09:19:43 <kgk> if I could make a suggestion, it would be good to call that out in the bitcoin spec documentation. I just got bitten by that
 474 2014-12-03 09:19:47 vmatekole has joined
 475 2014-12-03 09:19:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the obvious "choice" is to interpret it in big endian. or at least don't print it backward.
 476 2014-12-03 09:20:12 <Luke-Jr> kgk: this is one of MANY instancesd
 477 2014-12-03 09:20:17 <Luke-Jr> kgk: like 30% of the docs would be warnings
 478 2014-12-03 09:20:23 <kgk> lol
 479 2014-12-03 09:20:32 <Luke-Jr> it's also exceedingly difficult to explain many of them in a way people understand
 480 2014-12-03 09:20:49 <Luke-Jr> for example, some cases require every 4 bytes to be byteswapped
 481 2014-12-03 09:21:12 <wumpus> middle-endian?
 482 2014-12-03 09:21:13 <kgk> ...oh gawd. what instance is that?
 483 2014-12-03 09:21:16 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: pretty much
 484 2014-12-03 09:21:19 <kgk> lol middle-endian
 485 2014-12-03 09:21:25 <Luke-Jr> kgk: the PoW
 486 2014-12-03 09:21:37 <iwilcox> Inside-outian
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 488 2014-12-03 09:21:51 <kgk> Luke-jr: the "compact bytes"?
 489 2014-12-03 09:21:54 <Luke-Jr> kgk: no
 490 2014-12-03 09:22:08 <Luke-Jr> kgk: every 4 bytes of the block header get swapped during the hashing
 491 2014-12-03 09:22:16 <iwilcox> I think lots of hash papers quite deliberately leave byte order of the result out of it, not even hinting at a preference.
 492 2014-12-03 09:22:26 uber2 is now known as uber
 493 2014-12-03 09:22:34 <Luke-Jr> iwilcox: the result is always supposed to be a byte array
 494 2014-12-03 09:22:37 <kgk> I have no idea how my block hash comes out right. I think I'm just getting lucky lol
 495 2014-12-03 09:22:37 <iwilcox> That's just from a bit of browsing of functions on WP a while back though, ICBW
 496 2014-12-03 09:22:48 <Luke-Jr> iwilcox: SHA2 explicitly defines that the output must be in big endian, and opaque to the user
 497 2014-12-03 09:22:58 jtimon has joined
 498 2014-12-03 09:23:22 <Luke-Jr> iwilcox: although it doesn't *say* "big endian", it describes it
 499 2014-12-03 09:23:50 <CodeShark> crypto primitives are generally treated as big endian in practically all major crypto libraries
 500 2014-12-03 09:24:10 <CodeShark> and in the encoding standards
 501 2014-12-03 09:25:11 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: everything sane is big endian ;)
 502 2014-12-03 09:25:17 <CodeShark> heh
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 505 2014-12-03 09:28:20 * gmaxwell repeats the advice that if _byte order_ is your biggest problem in bitcoin, you're either doing really well; or your doomed and all your code is wrong, because there is so much more subtle and detailed than a totally common data handling issue that every systems programmer must deal with to the extent that compilers come with builtins for high(er) performance byteswapping.
 506 2014-12-03 09:28:33 cbeams has joined
 507 2014-12-03 09:28:58 <CodeShark> it's certainly not my biggest problem with bitcoin - but it's a pretty unnecessary one and one that was easy to foresee up front
 508 2014-12-03 09:29:06 Logicwax has joined
 509 2014-12-03 09:30:05 <kgk> I'd still like to see a sentence in the bitcoin spec that says "hashes are little-endian". Maybe I just missed it?
 510 2014-12-03 09:30:08 <CodeShark> as far as taking issue with Satoshi, my biggest problem (or perhaps opportunity) is that any substantial innovation on his ideas requires complete reimplementation of huge chunks of code or hideous patching :p
 511 2014-12-03 09:31:04 <CodeShark> predictably, the vast majority of forks just tweak superficial crap
 512 2014-12-03 09:31:07 <wumpus> kgk: feel free to add it then, isn't the document open source?
 513 2014-12-03 09:31:22 <kgk> oh is it? I suppose it is a wiki. yeah I'd love to :)
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 515 2014-12-03 09:31:47 arubi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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 517 2014-12-03 09:33:01 <wumpus> (I'm not sure what 'spec' you're talking about, there's https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation but also a PDF floating around, which would be harder to patch up)
 518 2014-12-03 09:33:25 <wumpus> thought the .tex for that is in github now I see https://github.com/minium/Bitcoin-Spec
 519 2014-12-03 09:34:53 <kgk> I've been using this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
 520 2014-12-03 09:35:02 <blur3d> https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib README has a note under “Endianness Gotchas”. I haven’t seen it in the bitcoin core docs.
 521 2014-12-03 09:36:00 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 522 2014-12-03 09:36:54 <kgk> hmm, how do I get permission to edit the wiki?
 523 2014-12-03 09:37:37 <kgk> Under the "Common Structures" section, there is a sentence that says: "Almost all integers are encoded in little endian. Only IP or port number are encoded big endian."
 524 2014-12-03 09:38:10 <kgk> I just want to change that to: "Almost all integers are encoded in little endian. Hashes are encoded little-endian as well. Only IP or port number are encoded big endian."
 525 2014-12-03 09:38:17 <Luke-Jr> kgk: what username?
 526 2014-12-03 09:38:21 <kgk> kgk
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 528 2014-12-03 09:38:43 <kgk> that sentence probably would have saved me this trouble :)
 529 2014-12-03 09:39:00 <Luke-Jr> kgk: "hashes are little-endian" would be wrong, though ;)
 530 2014-12-03 09:39:36 <kgk> I'll just add like 5 asterisks behind it
 531 2014-12-03 09:39:39 xenog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 532 2014-12-03 09:39:40 <wumpus> "hashes are obfuscated by sending them in byte-reverse format" :p
 533 2014-12-03 09:39:56 <Luke-Jr> kgk: you can edit now
 534 2014-12-03 09:40:05 <kgk> thx!
 535 2014-12-03 09:41:51 <kgk> How about "transaction and block hashes are encoded litle-endian as well". is that fair to say?
 536 2014-12-03 09:42:01 <Luke-Jr> kgk: fwiw, I did make some attempt to explain it in the GBT specs, but I probably made the same mistake I just told you was wrong
 537 2014-12-03 09:42:10 <Luke-Jr> kgk: no, they're not any endian
 538 2014-12-03 09:42:20 <Luke-Jr> kgk: hashes are an array of 32 octets
 539 2014-12-03 09:42:44 <Luke-Jr> kgk: in fact, there's nothing *to* say on the Protocol specification page
 540 2014-12-03 09:42:52 <Luke-Jr> they're only reversed when being printed in hex
 541 2014-12-03 09:43:14 <Luke-Jr> oh, and compared with the target
 542 2014-12-03 09:44:12 <wumpus> and for comparison, specifying endian makes sense again
 543 2014-12-03 09:44:32 <wumpus> as it is necessary to interpret the 'opaque binary' as number for that
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 546 2014-12-03 09:45:22 <kgk> all I know is that I have to reverse my hashes before writing them to the wire
 547 2014-12-03 09:45:33 <kgk> and that appears to work
 548 2014-12-03 09:47:10 <Luke-Jr> kgk: because "your hashes" are reversed from what they're really supposed to be
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 550 2014-12-03 09:47:40 <kgk> *OpenSSL's hashes
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 552 2014-12-03 09:49:44 <Luke-Jr> kgk: oh, you mean the SHA256d hash OpenSSL gives you needs to be reverse before going on the p2p?
 553 2014-12-03 09:49:59 <kgk> yes
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 558 2014-12-03 09:50:51 <Luke-Jr> was it Bitcoin that reversed everything on p2p? or maybe it was Armagetron..
 559 2014-12-03 09:51:22 <Luke-Jr> kgk: I'm not sure where that reversal is occurring
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 561 2014-12-03 09:51:39 <wumpus> it's in your wires reversing your bytes!
 562 2014-12-03 09:51:55 <kgk> it's got to be when it's written to the wire.
 563 2014-12-03 09:52:30 <kgk> if I just take all my hashes and flip them just before writing, it all works :)
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 565 2014-12-03 09:53:11 <kgk> and when reading too. I just flip it as soon as I read from the wire
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 612 2014-12-03 10:41:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: please rebase #5306
 613 2014-12-03 10:41:48 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 614 2014-12-03 10:42:54 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: in the middle of another branch atm, gimme maybe 30 min
 615 2014-12-03 10:43:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's not *that* urgent, but just wanted to mention it here too in case you didnt notice github
 616 2014-12-03 10:43:28 <Luke-Jr> ok
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 621 2014-12-03 10:49:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you can't post to the mailing list?
 622 2014-12-03 10:49:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: nope, SF is claiming I'm spam
 623 2014-12-03 10:49:51 <Luke-Jr> https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/site-support/9062/
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 625 2014-12-03 10:50:41 <Luke-Jr> SF's server*
 626 2014-12-03 10:51:03 <wumpus> I think it's due for some changes anyhow: split it into a mailing list for bitcoin-core spefic discussion and one for proposals that affect everyone (ie, such as bips)
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 629 2014-12-03 10:52:33 <wumpus> I'm also in favor of moving to another service if there is a better one; but discussions on where to move end up nowhere every time, ie, google groups would be an option but a lot of people don't like google
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 631 2014-12-03 10:53:46 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I heard complaints about that before; yahoo users can't send to sourceforge lists either?
 632 2014-12-03 10:55:06 oujh has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 633 2014-12-03 10:56:32 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: dunno, I can't email Yahoo users either ironically
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 635 2014-12-03 10:57:13 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't like Google either. :P  Savannah/"non GNU" seems to work for BFGMiner, but it's much lower traffic
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 638 2014-12-03 10:58:48 <wumpus> anything that would require a lot of babysitting by me, such as hosting our own listserv, I'd rather not
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 640 2014-12-03 11:00:08 <Luke-Jr> Cons for Savannah: intensive review process required to get projects approved, and we only need MLs
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 643 2014-12-03 11:02:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ok, rebase done
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 652 2014-12-03 11:12:04 <wumpus> I don't necessarily like google either but I trust them to get hosting a *public* mailing list right
 653 2014-12-03 11:12:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok cool
 654 2014-12-03 11:12:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: without forcing me to join Google+?
 655 2014-12-03 11:12:50 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: subscribe gmane to it. that's the usual approach :P
 656 2014-12-03 11:12:52 <Luke-Jr> I seem to recall being unable to use Google Groups without Google+ lately
 657 2014-12-03 11:13:00 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: for posting?
 658 2014-12-03 11:13:03 <lewellyn> mhm
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 663 2014-12-03 11:18:29 <Jouke> Luke-Jr: last time that happened to my own email, I had some slight misconfigurations of the mail server after I moved it to an other place.
 664 2014-12-03 11:18:56 <Luke-Jr> Jouke: I haven't even upgraded mine in months, short of security patching
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 688 2014-12-03 11:27:47 <wumpus> 'abusing' another code hosting service like gnu savannah to provide mailinglists, I'm not sure. would be good to move away from that
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 693 2014-12-03 11:33:17 <Luke-Jr> kinlo runs mailing lists for GBT2 development, and pool operators; maybe he'd volunteer to run a few more
 694 2014-12-03 11:34:36 <hearn> Luke-Jr: you need an account for any mailing list, the only question is how you admin it and what other stuff that account does
 695 2014-12-03 11:34:54 <hearn> google groups is the only actively maintained mailing list software that doesn't suck, that i'm aware of
 696 2014-12-03 11:35:10 <Luke-Jr> hearn: I don't need to join Google+ to use any other mailing list
 697 2014-12-03 11:35:20 <hearn> seems mailing lists aren't really cool anymore. there's tons of web forums out there
 698 2014-12-03 11:35:22 <sipa> you don't need Google+ for gmail groups
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 700 2014-12-03 11:35:40 <sipa> afaik an admin can even add any e-mail address to a google group
 701 2014-12-03 11:36:10 <hearn> yeah anyone can subscribe without an account, i think
 702 2014-12-03 11:36:13 <sipa> (though i'm not sure if/how you can sign up yourself without google account)
 703 2014-12-03 11:36:14 <hearn> at least it seems to be this way for my own lists
 704 2014-12-03 11:36:24 <hearn> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/lighthouse-users
 705 2014-12-03 11:36:40 <hearn> if i open that in incognito window i see a link "subscribe to this group" that opens up a form with a captcha and email address input
 706 2014-12-03 11:36:47 <hearn> so it does seem to be possible
 707 2014-12-03 11:36:59 <hearn> also you can have google accounts without them being google+, i think. can't remember now.
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 709 2014-12-03 11:38:53 <Luke-Jr> hearn: hm, I can only apply to subscribe to that one - and perhaps more importantly, I'd need to agree to some long ToS I'd rather not spend time analyzing
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 711 2014-12-03 11:39:03 <Luke-Jr> seems like it has at least the same problem Google Code has
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 713 2014-12-03 11:39:59 <Luke-Jr> (granting Google a copyright license in a way that essentially makes them immune to GPL or similar requirements)
 714 2014-12-03 11:40:57 <hearn> eh?
 715 2014-12-03 11:41:20 <hearn> oops
 716 2014-12-03 11:41:21 <Luke-Jr> hearn: the ToS requires you to basically give Google MIT-like terms to anything you submit
 717 2014-12-03 11:41:23 <hearn> i sent you the wrong list :)
 718 2014-12-03 11:41:26 <hearn> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lighthouse-discuss
 719 2014-12-03 11:41:31 <hearn> can you subscribe to that one without approval?
 720 2014-12-03 11:41:46 <hearn> Luke-Jr: to stop people sending emails and then claiming google owns them $$$ for copyright infringement
 721 2014-12-03 11:41:49 <Luke-Jr> looks like it - though not without the ToS
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 723 2014-12-03 11:41:58 <lewellyn> hearn: that link you gave is useless.
 724 2014-12-03 11:42:00 <lewellyn>    To use Google Groups Discussions, please enable JavaScript in your
 725 2014-12-03 11:42:03 <Luke-Jr> hearn: there are clauses for that which don't nullify GPL-like restrictions
 726 2014-12-03 11:42:03 <lewellyn>    browser settings, and then refresh this page.
 727 2014-12-03 11:42:04 <hearn> when you run your own mailing list and have no money, this is something that can be ignored. but then your mailing list might not be so well run
 728 2014-12-03 11:42:41 <Luke-Jr> hearn: in particular, Google doesn't need to make derived works or modify the post content
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 730 2014-12-03 11:43:15 <hearn> it's for things like auto linkification, etc. lawyers want boilerplate language that covers whatever the software needs to do and doesn't need to be constantly updated.
 731 2014-12-03 11:43:37 <hearn> anyway, this is kind of silly. lots of people manage to use hosted mailing lists like this for decades with no problems ever reported.
 732 2014-12-03 11:43:38 <Luke-Jr> maybe lawyers do, but users don't.
 733 2014-12-03 11:43:43 * lewellyn is against choosing a list interface which is designed to not be viewable in any user agent.
 734 2014-12-03 11:44:19 <Luke-Jr> lawyers don't always have to get their way
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 736 2014-12-03 11:45:31 <hearn> i think the ToS is pretty readable, but whatever.
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 738 2014-12-03 11:47:38 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: you might consider getting in touch with XtreamLab maybe?
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 740 2014-12-03 11:48:08 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: ?
 741 2014-12-03 11:48:18 <lewellyn> they do some hosting of mailing lists
 742 2014-12-03 11:49:03 <Luke-Jr> hm, that's a point too - better to not rely on non-free software ;)
 743 2014-12-03 11:49:18 <lewellyn> they use mailman, yes :)
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 745 2014-12-03 11:49:53 <lewellyn> as for the big names, only Launchpad is not totally unpalatable in my book for something like this. and that's a weird fit.
 746 2014-12-03 11:50:15 <Luke-Jr> I didn't even realise Launchpad did mailing lists :o
 747 2014-12-03 11:50:26 <lewellyn> i thought they did
 748 2014-12-03 11:50:39 <lewellyn> sure enough
 749 2014-12-03 11:50:48 <lewellyn> also using mailman
 750 2014-12-03 11:51:23 <lewellyn> oh. nevermind. * Postings by people who are not Launchpad members are immediately discarded.
 751 2014-12-03 11:51:31 <lewellyn> i knew there was a reason i had discounted them in the past.
 752 2014-12-03 11:51:40 <lewellyn> it's pretty much the same as google in that regard.
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 756 2014-12-03 11:53:54 <lewellyn> but yeah. http://gmane.org/subscribe.php will probably help those who dislike random web interfaces for lists they don't sub to. :)
 757 2014-12-03 11:54:10 <lewellyn> (they provide an nntp interface, which means you can do things like local searches)
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 761 2014-12-03 11:58:23 <lewellyn> but, basically, hosted mail lists is a sucky situation. period.
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 828 2014-12-03 13:03:38 <wumpus> unhosted mailing lists are even worse :)
 829 2014-12-03 13:03:57 <sipa> hey let's just create a github repo that people can subscribe to, and post issues on
 830 2014-12-03 13:04:00 <sipa> *ducks*
 831 2014-12-03 13:04:06 <wumpus> just put everyone in the mailto list! :P it is the distributed way
 832 2014-12-03 13:04:20 <sipa> we need mailcoin
 833 2014-12-03 13:04:21 benrcole has joined
 834 2014-12-03 13:04:24 <wumpus> lol!
 835 2014-12-03 13:04:44 <wumpus> the mailing list archive in a blockchain
 836 2014-12-03 13:04:50 Quanttek has quit (Client Quit)
 837 2014-12-03 13:05:11 <JackH> since we are talking about this I have a number of suggestions
 838 2014-12-03 13:05:19 <wumpus> 'mining' would add mails to the list, probably needs human intervention though against spam
 839 2014-12-03 13:05:34 <JackH> I need chattting, templates and the obvious in-build-browser
 840 2014-12-03 13:06:22 <wumpus> that sounds more like freenet, or retroshare
 841 2014-12-03 13:06:23 <hearn> just use IRC for everything ;)
 842 2014-12-03 13:06:44 <hearn> sipa: finally a legitimate use for OP_RETURN :)
 843 2014-12-03 13:07:23  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Remote host closed the connection)
 844 2014-12-03 13:08:13 <wumpus> anyhow, this went exactly like the last five times someone brought up moving the mailing list :-)
 845 2014-12-03 13:08:39 * wumpus hugs sourceforge
 846 2014-12-03 13:10:02 <Luke-Jr> [12:55:15] <sipa> hey let's just create a github repo that people can subscribe to, and post issues on <-- that's actually not a terrible idea IMO
 847 2014-12-03 13:10:13 <paveljanik> +1
 848 2014-12-03 13:10:30 <sipa> i wasn't being serious :(
 849 2014-12-03 13:10:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it'd work though - threads are cleanly organised, and you can unsubscribe from them individually..
 850 2014-12-03 13:11:01 <paveljanik> every good ideas comes from "I was not serious"...
 851 2014-12-03 13:12:36 <wumpus> another option would be to use a git repository, and have each commit be a message :P
 852 2014-12-03 13:13:00 zibbo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 853 2014-12-03 13:13:14 <sipa> see, a blockchain
 854 2014-12-03 13:13:49 <paveljanik> wumpus: this can't work. This way, people can't commit a complete history in a new commit ;-)
 855 2014-12-03 13:13:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that wouldn't email it
 856 2014-12-03 13:13:52 jonasschnelli has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 857 2014-12-03 13:14:05 <sipa> we just need a smtp git postcommit hook
 858 2014-12-03 13:14:07 <wumpus> different discussions could happen on forks, and then later on they could be merged for a complete history
 859 2014-12-03 13:14:12  has joined
 860 2014-12-03 13:14:29 <paveljanik> looks like new startup is going to happen 8)
 861 2014-12-03 13:14:45 <sipa> well, every tool grows until it gains smtp support, right?
 862 2014-12-03 13:14:50 Bootvis has joined
 863 2014-12-03 13:14:55 <paveljanik> M-x smtp RET
 864 2014-12-03 13:15:11 Namworld has joined
 865 2014-12-03 13:15:16 <wumpus> that used to be it, nowadays every tools grows until it has a fully programmable mini-os
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 867 2014-12-03 13:16:10 <paveljanik> or its own package manager for add-ons.
 868 2014-12-03 13:16:14 <wumpus> yes, that
 869 2014-12-03 13:16:18 <wumpus> and an app store
 870 2014-12-03 13:17:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is it intentional that larger numbers use the thin-space (to the left of the decimal point)?
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 872 2014-12-03 13:17:28 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes?
 873 2014-12-03 13:17:40 <Luke-Jr> k
 874 2014-12-03 13:17:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hopefully only in the GUI though and not in RPC? :o
 875 2014-12-03 13:17:46 <sipa> lol
 876 2014-12-03 13:17:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, only GUI afaik
 877 2014-12-03 13:17:57 <Luke-Jr> I just thought it odd
 878 2014-12-03 13:18:01 <sipa> please send me 0.012nbsp;34 BTC
 879 2014-12-03 13:18:22 * paveljanik can't work because of tears in his eyes...
 880 2014-12-03 13:18:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well unlike the locale-specific number formatting I had written people actually wanted this
 881 2014-12-03 13:18:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: to the right seems expected :p
 882 2014-12-03 13:19:11 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's not a problem, I just wanted to check
 883 2014-12-03 13:19:18 <sipa> i should try opening bitcoin-qt again
 884 2014-12-03 13:19:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I try not to make much sense of our user's preferences :)
 885 2014-12-03 13:20:39 <Luke-Jr> are we no longer trimming excess zeros off the right side? O.o
 886 2014-12-03 13:20:54 <wumpus> no
 887 2014-12-03 13:21:15 <Luke-Jr> eww
 888 2014-12-03 13:21:16 <Luke-Jr> can we at least have an option for that? :x
 889 2014-12-03 13:21:20 <wumpus> this makes it clearer that bitcoins can be subdivided to 8 places
 890 2014-12-03 13:21:25 <wumpus> no, we can't
 891 2014-12-03 13:21:32 <Luke-Jr> :<
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 894 2014-12-03 13:23:39 <Luke-Jr> how about make them blend in with the background colour more? <.<
 895 2014-12-03 13:24:06 <sipa> or have a glow effect around them when you hover over them? please?
 896 2014-12-03 13:24:26 <wumpus> lol sipa
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 898 2014-12-03 13:24:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: srsly? is it so unreasonable to want values readable?
 899 2014-12-03 13:25:18 <sipa> no, but i don't have a strong opinion on ui issues
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 901 2014-12-03 13:25:26 <Luke-Jr> guess I can just have my TBC patch add the trim back in <.<
 902 2014-12-03 13:25:39 <wumpus> having 8 fixed zeros makes it more readable, when you're used to it
 903 2014-12-03 13:25:52 <wumpus> fixed decimal places*
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 905 2014-12-03 13:26:25 <sipa> or use mBTC/uBTC
 906 2014-12-03 13:26:36 <wumpus> right
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 908 2014-12-03 13:27:02 <wumpus> uBTC has only two fixed decimal places
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 910 2014-12-03 13:28:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: makes it easier to miss that one of those zeros isn't a zero
 911 2014-12-03 13:28:33 <wumpus> which matches most people's expectations; but *hiding* numbers isn't a good idea, it makes it seem like round numbers are somehow special
 912 2014-12-03 13:29:06 <wumpus> and in practice most btc amounts look like 3.23421232 as it's as they're converted from a $ amount
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 914 2014-12-03 13:30:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm fine with giving trailing zeros a different shade of color, but it may be non-trivial to do especially in the tables, requiring custom renderers and such
 915 2014-12-03 13:30:26 <Luke-Jr> hm
 916 2014-12-03 13:30:31 <wumpus> custom ItemDelegate
 917 2014-12-03 13:30:32 <Luke-Jr> I thought CSS worked there
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 919 2014-12-03 13:30:52 <wumpus> no. CSS works in labels, not in tables
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 926 2014-12-03 13:33:04 * Luke-Jr gives up
 927 2014-12-03 13:33:15 <wumpus> so did we, you're just months later :)
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 934 2014-12-03 13:36:23 <Luke-Jr> lol XD
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 940 2014-12-03 13:41:46 * Luke-Jr peers at using png images for text
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 943 2014-12-03 13:46:29 <wumpus> png? ugh :) there's a reason fonts use vector format these days
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 952 2014-12-03 13:56:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, I would have thought it was just right-aligned text :/
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 956 2014-12-03 14:02:21 <hearn> for gitian, are the instructions saying to use debian 7.4 still accurate? that's a pretty old release
 957 2014-12-03 14:02:53 <sipa> i should go set up gitian again
 958 2014-12-03 14:03:43 <hearn> i guess 7.7 will also work
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 960 2014-12-03 14:04:09 <Luke-Jr> yeah, 7.7 should be current
 961 2014-12-03 14:04:21 <Luke-Jr> and just bugfixes on top of 7.4
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1016 2014-12-03 14:58:07 <hearn> i hate making decentralised apps
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1039 2014-12-03 15:20:26 <michagogo> sipa: haha
1040 2014-12-03 15:21:17 <michagogo> BTW, wumpus, do you expect that we may have a new tag (0.10/0.9.4 rc?) within the next few days to a week?
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1042 2014-12-03 15:22:08 <michagogo> I need to wipe my HD and start over (restoring most things from a clone), and so won't have access to my VM for a bit
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1044 2014-12-03 15:22:20 <michagogo> Not sure how long it'll take me
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1047 2014-12-03 15:24:21 <wumpus> michagogo: next week probably
1048 2014-12-03 15:24:32 <wumpus> (given that no serious problems come up)
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1051 2014-12-03 15:26:15 <michagogo> Okay, so I think I'll go ahead with it
1052 2014-12-03 15:26:15 nglpx1 has joined
1053 2014-12-03 15:26:26 <michagogo> Worst case, my sigs will be a couple days late
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1055 2014-12-03 15:28:15 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5368 is ready for merge, I can’t think of any more ways of testing it.
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1061 2014-12-03 15:34:34 <chmod755> omg the facebook like button works via TOR
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1069 2014-12-03 15:41:45 <Eliel_> that facebook tor support gives me a feeling of a trojan horse. I mean, you can't use facebook without telling them who you are.
1070 2014-12-03 15:42:03 <Diablo-D3> Eliel_: so turn abp on
1071 2014-12-03 15:42:13 <Diablo-D3> and tell it to block facebook shit
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1073 2014-12-03 15:42:34 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ok, will take a look at it
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1075 2014-12-03 15:45:11 <Eliel_> Diablo-D3: Ghostery does that too.
1076 2014-12-03 15:45:13 <wumpus> Eliel_: indeed - obviously don't log into facebook in a browser session where you intend to stay anonymous, doesn't matter whether that is over tor hidden service or not, facebook tracks you everywhere using cookies
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1078 2014-12-03 15:45:24 <hearn> haha
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1080 2014-12-03 15:45:38 <wumpus> Eliel_: same is true for every site where you identify yourself, of course
1081 2014-12-03 15:45:39 <chmod755> Eliel_, I just found that 42 people liked a TOR blackmarket on FB
1082 2014-12-03 15:45:46 <hearn> https://buyaccs.com/
1083 2014-12-03 15:45:53 <hearn> or go buy some fresh fake facebook accounts
1084 2014-12-03 15:46:04 <hearn> ready made! just add water and stolen pictures of cute girls
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1086 2014-12-03 15:46:32 <chmod755> i mean.... they really 'liked' the .onion address
1087 2014-12-03 15:46:48 <wumpus> but for people that use tor to avoid their government's restrictive firewall it can make sense, it's obviously a different use case than internet black markets
1088 2014-12-03 15:48:40 <michagogo> I לןמגש 'םמגקר ים' צובי ישדיפם'קר ןא אםםל איקצ אם עקא אישא שגגרקדד
1089 2014-12-03 15:48:41 <michagogo> erm
1090 2014-12-03 15:48:45 nelisky has joined
1091 2014-12-03 15:48:59 <michagogo> I kinda wonder how much hashpower it took them to get that address
1092 2014-12-03 15:49:07 O01eg has joined
1093 2014-12-03 15:49:26 <michagogo> (fun fact: if you accidentally use the wrong keyboard setting, just Google the string and it translates it for you)
1094 2014-12-03 15:49:28 <wumpus> ie, all those british people that have or want to visit naughty sites >:
1095 2014-12-03 15:49:46 <michagogo> wumpus: I think that's just for the creation of such content in the UK
1096 2014-12-03 15:50:07 <michagogo> Not hosting or consumption
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1102 2014-12-03 15:51:30 <chmod755> michagogo, hah nice. didnt know about that
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1145 2014-12-03 16:32:18 <kruug> what files are at https://bitcoincore.org/depends-sources/sdks ?  I was playing around with travis ci on a fork, but I can't get past that one step...
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1148 2014-12-03 16:36:05 <wumpus> kruug: necessary files for the travis build; eg the macosx sdk
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1152 2014-12-03 16:39:57 <kruug> wumpus: make files as well?  That's what the error is that I'm seeing.
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1173 2014-12-03 16:57:49 <sipa> kruug: you shouldn't need any makefiles
1174 2014-12-03 16:59:20 <kruug> sipa: this is the error from Travis CI: http://paste.debian.net/134755/
1175 2014-12-03 17:00:27 <sipa> well there is a Makefile in that directory...
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1177 2014-12-03 17:01:25 <kruug> is that MakeFile from the website, or something that should be in git?
1178 2014-12-03 17:01:40 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/depends
1179 2014-12-03 17:01:45 <sipa> there's a Makefile there
1180 2014-12-03 17:01:53 <sipa> so you're not running it against the right source tree
1181 2014-12-03 17:03:08 <kruug> ah, so there's the issue.  I think I borked it when I forked because it didn't pull all of the files.  Thanks.
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1292 2014-12-03 18:30:35 <lechuga_> is the v3 supermajority check planned for 0.10?
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1294 2014-12-03 18:32:20 <lechuga_> wrt bip62
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1299 2014-12-03 18:35:45 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: No, BIP62 didn't make it into 0.10.0.
1300 2014-12-03 18:35:51 <lechuga_> phew
1301 2014-12-03 18:35:55 <lechuga_> thx
1302 2014-12-03 18:36:02 <Luke-Jr> phew?
1303 2014-12-03 18:36:12 <lechuga_> i can procrastinate a bit
1304 2014-12-03 18:36:16 <Luke-Jr> if there are reservations about BIP 62, you should bring them up now
1305 2014-12-03 18:36:24 <lechuga_> oh no, seems reasonable
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1307 2014-12-03 18:36:54 <lechuga_> im phewing at the lack of need for me to do anything about it right now codewise
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1360 2014-12-03 19:26:11 <z333andO_o> Eliel_: Keep in mind that you may want to protect _where_ you are without hiding _who_ you are.
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1368 2014-12-03 19:38:39 <Eliel_> z333andO_o: good point :)
1369 2014-12-03 19:39:42 <Eliel_> still, facebook can probably figure that out unless you make sure they can't follow what you browse.
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1430 2014-12-03 20:52:38 <pylis> Hello, I am new to the dev community and bitcoin source. I am working on creating a non-monetary alternate chain (similar to how namecoin handles DNS). I am aware that altcoin discussion is off topic for this channel, but I am hoping to gain some insight into where to start poking around in the source. I have read the wiki page on alternative chains and know how I would like to structure transactions/blocks/etc but am unsure of the next steps.
1431 2014-12-03 20:53:04 <pylis> any help on this, including where might be a better venue to ask, would be appreciated
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1530 2014-12-03 23:26:55 <dlax> Hi all, I am trying to create some new software that uses the block chain for consensus. I was hoping for some suggestions as to where to look in the source code of bitcoin to get started.
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1534 2014-12-03 23:28:35 <pylis> \msg dlax hey it's ben
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1560 2014-12-03 23:54:23 <lechuga_> dlax: main.cpp is a good start
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