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24 2014-12-17 00:34:11 <average> do you remember when I was here last time ?
25 2014-12-17 00:34:22 <average> and I asked "hey, give me a reading list about bitcoin development"
26 2014-12-17 00:34:50 <average> and you just told me "read the bitcoin developer guide" ?
27 2014-12-17 00:35:06 <lechuga_> wat happens if we say yes
28 2014-12-17 00:35:16 <average> lechuga_: you would be right if you said yes
29 2014-12-17 00:35:29 <lechuga_> then yes
30 2014-12-17 00:35:41 <average> https://github.com/jashmenn/bitcoin-reading-list
31 2014-12-17 00:35:47 <average> I found this in teh meantime ^^
32 2014-12-17 00:36:02 <lechuga_> ah thats cool
33 2014-12-17 00:36:06 <gmaxwell> Glad to know you don't take advice after asking for it them, I guess? :)
34 2014-12-17 00:36:23 <average> gmaxwell: oh I did take the advice and I really appreciated it then and I appreciate it now
35 2014-12-17 00:36:36 <average> but I found something more vast and more complete, so I thought I'd come back and share :)
36 2014-12-17 00:36:41 <gmaxwell> Oh good!
37 2014-12-17 00:37:36 <gmaxwell> hey that list has things I'd recommend on it. (this is high remarks, most lists of bitcoin information I've seen has had basically 0 overlap with what I'd suggest).
38 2014-12-17 00:38:17 <average> :)
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40 2014-12-17 00:39:17 <sipa> average: i believe i was the one pointing you to the dev guide; good to know there's something else i should be pointing people to too :)
41 2014-12-17 00:40:11 <gmaxwell> apparently some around here knew about it already, https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoinninja/pull/10
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44 2014-12-17 00:46:30 <proserpine-> average: wow thanks for that, really helpful
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62 2014-12-17 01:08:47 <Luke-Jr> if I forget to address Sergio's comments on prioritise, feel free to pester/remind me
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65 2014-12-17 01:10:43 <lechuga_> hmm i dont use 'pester' enough
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114 2014-12-17 02:10:27 <sand3r> hi
115 2014-12-17 02:10:30 <sand3r> bitcoind getinfo
116 2014-12-17 02:10:32 <sand3r> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what(): locale::facet::_S_create_c_locale name not valid
117 2014-12-17 02:10:35 <sand3r> Aborted
118 2014-12-17 02:10:38 <sand3r> why this error? :/
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124 2014-12-17 02:22:02 <BlueMatt> sand3r: uhhh....thats...strange
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126 2014-12-17 02:22:22 <BlueMatt> looks like your C_ALL/system locale is some strange value?
127 2014-12-17 02:22:27 <gwillen> BlueMatt: some discussion in #bitcoin
128 2014-12-17 02:22:33 <BlueMatt> nvm
129 2014-12-17 02:22:37 <gwillen> (it does seem like his system locales are messed up)
130 2014-12-17 02:22:46 <BlueMatt> yup
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135 2014-12-17 02:28:50 <sand3r> BlueMatt:
136 2014-12-17 02:28:52 <sand3r> dpkg-reconfigure locales
137 2014-12-17 02:29:01 <BlueMatt> sand3r: please continue on #bitcoin
138 2014-12-17 02:29:04 <sand3r> fixed this. now its working :)
139 2014-12-17 02:29:22 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok, good
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160 2014-12-17 03:22:25 <duuude> hi. I have a question on the original C++ code written by Satoshi. is there a copy somewhere?
161 2014-12-17 03:22:53 <duuude> also, does it have a mix of styles/endianness etc that strongly suggests it was not one person but multiple sharing a pseudonym?
162 2014-12-17 03:24:09 <BlueMatt> duuude: (a) no one cares who satoshi is, (b) attacking his preference towards psudonimity is not appreciated, and (c) you arent gonna do any better than the last 100 people who tried and came up with bullshit conclusions
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164 2014-12-17 03:24:48 <duuude> BlueMatt, I don't care who he is. I'm just asking what the consensus is, i.e. is it obviously multiple people based on mixing endianness, etc.
165 2014-12-17 03:25:23 <BlueMatt> its really not obviously anything
166 2014-12-17 03:25:40 <duuude> I mean if one part of the code ALWAYS writes (for i = 0; i < 10; i++) and the other ALWAYS writes for(i = 0; i <= 9; i++) and so forth, it's pretty clear.
167 2014-12-17 03:25:47 <duuude> BlueMatt, are you a coder?
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169 2014-12-17 03:26:41 <duuude> or one part always does casts this way (int) x and the other always does casts this way int (x)
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177 2014-12-17 03:35:54 <s1w> duuude: look for yourself. you know how to use git, right?
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224 2014-12-17 04:42:17 <gmaxwell> 20:32 < adam3us> gavin on scalability live stream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5AQdbo0nY
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317 2014-12-17 06:38:45 <aburan28> has anyone seen the talk "The End of Crypto" from the IACR conference?
318 2014-12-17 06:38:53 <aburan28> this is the url https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ijjHZHNIbU
319 2014-12-17 06:39:25 <aburan28> basically it assumes that the endpoint/client can never be secured
320 2014-12-17 06:39:58 <aburan28> and if that holds true that has broad implications for bitcoin wallets
321 2014-12-17 06:40:13 <gmaxwell> aburan28: this is why bitcoin can use multisignature, and I believe we're the first largescale user of threshold cryptography.
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324 2014-12-17 06:43:25 <aburan28> yeah but we gotta get the adoption rate of multisig way up
325 2014-12-17 06:43:39 <aburan28> have you heard of white box cryptography?
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337 2014-12-17 06:49:38 <gmaxwell> aburan28: mostly snake oil; e.g. there was just another paper on breaking obfuscator-llvm that I saw last week.
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441 2014-12-17 09:03:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: wumpus: just a FYI, 0.10 branch does already break ABI with secp256k1 master
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444 2014-12-17 09:04:11 <Luke-Jr> I doubt it's a concern, since we're embedding a copy in the BCCore codebase, but just in case it wasn't intentional
445 2014-12-17 09:06:41 <bedeho> Does anyone know if picocoin is mature enough to be used in production?
446 2014-12-17 09:06:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: It's intentional.
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459 2014-12-17 09:15:12 <bedeho> Different way of asking: how would you recommend adding an spv client and wallet to c++ software while avoiding a copyleft license (libbitcoin)? Talking to bitcoinj through JNI is a last resort :/
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465 2014-12-17 09:17:46 <phantomcircuit> bedeho, if you need a library for an spv client being written in c++
466 2014-12-17 09:18:05 <bedeho> C or C++, yes
467 2014-12-17 09:18:07 <phantomcircuit> asking whether picocoin is mature is maybe not the first question to ask
468 2014-12-17 09:18:19 <bedeho> why?
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470 2014-12-17 09:19:22 <Luke-Jr> bedeho: what's the problem with copyleft?
471 2014-12-17 09:20:00 <bedeho> There is no problem with copyleft, but I cannot commit to it in my project at this point, so I need something more permissive
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511 2014-12-17 09:53:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: If I drop .lighter, won't everything become the same colour shade (ignoring alpha)?
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514 2014-12-17 09:58:13 <phantomcircuit> bedeho, because writing the logic you need for an spv client is relatively easy... if you can do it at all
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516 2014-12-17 09:59:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sipa: wumpus: the libsecp256k1 bundled in 0.10 also is forcing GMP when available..
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548 2014-12-17 10:32:41 <midnightmagic> cool
549 2014-12-17 10:32:47 <midnightmagic> 2014-12-17 10:22:07 ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 7f2b48481f16a4900431b0885facd7274ca9ab64aaf937310e06eacc19bc2f52:0 VerifySignature failed: Public key is neither compressed or uncompressed
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552 2014-12-17 10:35:03 <Luke-Jr> s/or/nor/
553 2014-12-17 10:35:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yeah, we should pass --with-bignum=none to the subconfigure, but no idea how to do that
554 2014-12-17 10:36:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: --with-bignum=none doesn't work, I mean
555 2014-12-17 10:37:29 <Luke-Jr> libsecp256k1 at that commit still ignores it
556 2014-12-17 10:38:26 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
557 2014-12-17 10:38:30 <sipa> heh?
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560 2014-12-17 10:42:20 <midnightmagic> as of commit 5f7279ac70b755d3aac9582d36e08bdf0e3f4fc6, bitcoind -testnet with -txindex is using 98MB RSS, mainline 648MB on a 32-bit hoat.
561 2014-12-17 10:42:33 <midnightmagic> so, I guess that's a bit less than it was using last time I checked
562 2014-12-17 10:45:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the easy fix seems to be to cherry-pick your configure changes on top of the older code
563 2014-12-17 10:45:49 <Luke-Jr> (the ones that make --without-bignum work)
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567 2014-12-17 10:48:13 <paveljanik> midnightmagic, that commit should not have any effect...
568 2014-12-17 10:48:20 <paveljanik> maybe other change affected that
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571 2014-12-17 10:49:25 <midnightmagic> paveljanik: I am describing only what I checked out when I grabbed HEAD the other day, not the results of any sort of analysis as to why the tx are being listed in debug.log
572 2014-12-17 10:49:51 <midnightmagic> nor memory consumption
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576 2014-12-17 10:56:43 <paveljanik> midnightmagic, ah, ok. I thought that this exact commit is the cause of this.
577 2014-12-17 10:57:27 <midnightmagic> no, I just didn't recall whether I checked out HEAD or 0.10 branches
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584 2014-12-17 11:01:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: before, it was --with-bignum=none
585 2014-12-17 11:01:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, but that got ignored if GMP was installed
586 2014-12-17 11:02:11 <sipa> heh, that shouldn't
587 2014-12-17 11:02:24 * Luke-Jr double checks one more time..
588 2014-12-17 11:02:51 <sipa> in any case, that would have been a big i'm unaware of
589 2014-12-17 11:02:51 <Luke-Jr> maybe it was field, not bignum?
590 2014-12-17 11:02:56 <sipa> oh, right
591 2014-12-17 11:02:58 <sipa> you need both
592 2014-12-17 11:03:03 <Luke-Jr> ?
593 2014-12-17 11:03:20 <sipa> --with-field=somethingnotGMP --with-bignum=none
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595 2014-12-17 11:03:34 <Luke-Jr> hm
596 2014-12-17 11:03:48 <sipa> the problem is that that something is platform dependent
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598 2014-12-17 11:04:28 <Luke-Jr> I thought I had tried that too.. but not reproducing it now, so maybe not
599 2014-12-17 11:04:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 32bit isn't generic C?
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601 2014-12-17 11:05:03 <sipa> field=32bit uses uint64_t, field=64bit uses __int128
602 2014-12-17 11:05:16 <sipa> but field=32bit is very slow
603 2014-12-17 11:05:44 <sipa> (well, still faster than openssl, but several times slower than field=64bit, and even slower than field=gmp on most platforms, which is why field=gmp still exists)
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606 2014-12-17 11:09:08 <Luke-Jr> why do you say it is platform dependent then?
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608 2014-12-17 11:10:30 <sipa> on x86_64 you want field=64bit, on x86 you want field=32bit
609 2014-12-17 11:11:39 <wumpus> sipa: ah yes I did some benchmarks with different settings on ARM, still mean to look at them and publish them
610 2014-12-17 11:11:57 <sipa> wumpus: on ARM, field=32bit is actually faster than field=gmp
611 2014-12-17 11:12:03 <sipa> gmaxwell did benchmarks too
612 2014-12-17 11:12:06 <wumpus> OK
613 2014-12-17 11:12:18 <sipa> so the easy option is to remove field=gmp :)
614 2014-12-17 11:12:23 <wumpus> whoo mips32be testnet sync is at 78%, this beast is crawling but getting there
615 2014-12-17 11:12:24 <wumpus> agreed
616 2014-12-17 11:12:44 <sipa> which we probably should do anyway, as it is harder to guarantee constant-time behaviour for it
617 2014-12-17 11:12:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but then it's slower for me?
618 2014-12-17 11:13:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: yes, but if libsecp256k1 ever ends up being used for consensus code, i don't think we want the GMP dependency anyway
619 2014-12-17 11:13:34 <wumpus> also -O3 was slightly faster in ARM, so that was good
620 2014-12-17 11:13:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: assuming it's only ever used in consensus code
621 2014-12-17 11:13:53 <wumpus> I wonder if it makes sense to write the asm parts in NEON
622 2014-12-17 11:14:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: isn't -O3 dangerous?
623 2014-12-17 11:14:29 <sipa> libsecp now compiles with -O3 by default, it's a few % faster
624 2014-12-17 11:14:31 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the default was switched to that for secp256k1
625 2014-12-17 11:14:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no comment on that being dangerous :<
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627 2014-12-17 11:15:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yeah, I mean in the sense that -O3 has been known to produce broken code in some cases
628 2014-12-17 11:15:04 <sipa> well, we run the unit tests, even in bitcoin
629 2014-12-17 11:15:31 <wumpus> -O2 has also produced broken code in some cases, but sure the more optimization passes the more scope for error
630 2014-12-17 11:15:45 <wumpus> still, the unit tests didn't catch anything
631 2014-12-17 11:16:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: going to just go ahead and remove the lighten; who cares about the about icon âº
632 2014-12-17 11:16:18 <Luke-Jr> lighter*
633 2014-12-17 11:16:19 <sipa> btw, bitcoin compiles libsecp with -O2
634 2014-12-17 11:16:23 <sipa> as it inherits the flags
635 2014-12-17 11:16:43 <sipa> at this point, performance doesn't matter all that much (as it's just for signing)
636 2014-12-17 11:16:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: when -O2 breaks code, it's a compiler bug :p
637 2014-12-17 11:17:01 <sipa> when -O3 breaks code it's a compiler bug too
638 2014-12-17 11:17:06 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh the about icon was the one with variability in the color?
639 2014-12-17 11:17:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not always
640 2014-12-17 11:17:11 <wumpus> sipa: yup!
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642 2014-12-17 11:17:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yep
643 2014-12-17 11:17:15 <null> depends on the compiler
644 2014-12-17 11:17:26 <sipa> there are experimental options, but those shouldn't be enabled by -O3 afaik
645 2014-12-17 11:17:28 <null> sometimes -O disables stuff from the standard
646 2014-12-17 11:17:43 <null> *language standard
647 2014-12-17 11:17:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: -O3 enables some optimisations that break code that isn't strictly adhering to C/C++
648 2014-12-17 11:17:54 <wumpus> for GCC -O should not disable any standards behavior
649 2014-12-17 11:17:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: particularly, casting between pointers of different types
650 2014-12-17 11:18:14 <wumpus> ie, the potentially disastrous non-IEEE floating point options from -ffast-math are not included
651 2014-12-17 11:18:19 <sipa> yeah, peephole optimization iirc?
652 2014-12-17 11:18:26 <null> wumpus: gcc true, icc different story
653 2014-12-17 11:18:42 <null> ms* idk :)
654 2014-12-17 11:18:52 <sipa> or strict aliasing
655 2014-12-17 11:19:05 <wumpus> yes your code needs to be aliasing free for -O3 to not shoot you in the foot
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658 2014-12-17 11:19:45 <wumpus> null: makes sense to make the default compiler options compiler dependent
659 2014-12-17 11:20:03 <wumpus> icc and msvc's optimizations are different so it would require separate testing and benchmarking
660 2014-12-17 11:20:16 <wumpus> sweet spot could be completely somewhere else
661 2014-12-17 11:20:24 <wumpus> also * architectures
662 2014-12-17 11:20:27 <sipa> unsure whether they will work at all
663 2014-12-17 11:20:31 <sipa> icc/msvc
664 2014-12-17 11:20:35 <wumpus> though luckily ICC and MSVC don't exist for ARM
665 2014-12-17 11:20:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: they don't? what does Windows use for ARM?
666 2014-12-17 11:20:55 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: eh.. good point
667 2014-12-17 11:22:19 <sipa> let me benchmark field=gmp and field=32bit
668 2014-12-17 11:22:21 <wumpus> so for every CPU architecture / compiler combo, the best settings would have to be determined. Normally you'd default to 'normal' optimization unless a better choice is known for that specific combo
669 2014-12-17 11:22:32 * Luke-Jr ponders if Windows Phone can actually revive itself with Bitcoin
670 2014-12-17 11:22:50 <wumpus> 'normal' optimization level would hopefully be as safe as possible, independent of the compiler...
671 2014-12-17 11:22:52 <sipa> wumpus: pull requests welcome :p
672 2014-12-17 11:23:09 <wumpus> sipa: well apart from 'default to safe' I have no suggestions here
673 2014-12-17 11:23:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: pretty sure autotools just uses -O2 by default regardless of compiler
674 2014-12-17 11:23:21 <wumpus> primarily, bitcoin needs to be safe
675 2014-12-17 11:23:54 <sipa> heh, bitcoin could of course override the flags with -O1 or something :)
676 2014-12-17 11:24:12 <Luke-Jr> personally, I tend to be crazy and build with -O0 -ggdb
677 2014-12-17 11:24:17 <Luke-Jr> which disables inlining and crap
678 2014-12-17 11:24:27 <wumpus> -O2 is usually considered safe
679 2014-12-17 11:24:38 <wumpus> though of course you could go full paranoid and use -O
680 2014-12-17 11:24:43 <wumpus> -O0 is not recommended either
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682 2014-12-17 11:24:49 <wumpus> not inlining has been known to trigger bugs in some cases
683 2014-12-17 11:24:54 <Luke-Jr> -O2 screws up my debugger
684 2014-12-17 11:25:21 <wumpus> it shouldn't, but I've seen mess-ups with -O0, not with bitcoin though.
685 2014-12-17 11:25:25 <sipa> -O0 will hurt :)
686 2014-12-17 11:25:32 <sipa> in terms of performance
687 2014-12-17 11:25:36 <wumpus> oh yes
688 2014-12-17 11:25:39 <sipa> like 5 times slower
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690 2014-12-17 11:25:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it shouldn't? if I build with -O2, gdb jumps to like line 50, 47, 49, 48, 50, 47
691 2014-12-17 11:26:13 <Luke-Jr> very annoying and hard to follow
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693 2014-12-17 11:26:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh yes- any optimization will make debugging a lot harder, especially with C++
694 2014-12-17 11:26:34 <wumpus> with C I've managed to debug -O3 codebases, but gdb and c++ and optimization, oh please
695 2014-12-17 11:27:06 <sipa> recently i've mostly been debugging by adding printf's, and looking at generated assembly
696 2014-12-17 11:27:13 <wumpus> sipa: indeed, -O0 won't even pick the low-hanging fruit, which is bound to be most
697 2014-12-17 11:27:37 <sipa> -O0 won't do things like "oh, you divide by 64... should i perhaps use a shift instead?"
698 2014-12-17 11:27:40 <Luke-Jr> For my OS, I have Gentoo build with -march=core-avx2 -pipe -ggdb -O0 -mavx -fauto-inc-dec -fdce -fdse -fguess-branch-probability -fipa-pure-const -fmerge-constants -ftree-builtin-call-dce -ftree-ccp -ftree-ch -ftree-copyrename -ftree-dce -ftree-dominator-opts -ftree-dse -ftree-forwprop -ftree-fre -ftree-sra -fthread-jumps -fcaller-saves -finline-small-functions -findirect-inlining -foptimize-sibling-calls -fregmove -fstrict-aliasing -fstrict-
699 2014-12-17 11:27:41 <Luke-Jr> overflow -mno-ssse3
700 2014-12-17 11:28:27 <Luke-Jr> (which I hand-picked based on whether they affect my ability to debug)
701 2014-12-17 11:28:28 <sipa> 32bit or 64bit?
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703 2014-12-17 11:28:32 <Luke-Jr> 32-bit
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705 2014-12-17 11:29:09 <Luke-Jr> there's a few packages I disable SSE4 and AVX for too, since Valgrind can't handle it
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708 2014-12-17 11:29:47 <wumpus> gdb is nice as it can add 'dynamic printfs', especially with some python scripting you can do cool things without even recompiling
709 2014-12-17 11:29:56 <wumpus> though as said it works better for C than C++
710 2014-12-17 11:30:02 * Luke-Jr has some insane gdb scripts
711 2014-12-17 11:30:27 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/UbFSgb3g <-- .gdbinit
712 2014-12-17 11:32:23 <wumpus> me, too winner is https://github.com/laanwj/etna_viv/blob/master/tools/etnaviv_gdb.py which parses and disassembles out GPU state in-memory
713 2014-12-17 11:32:30 <Luke-Jr> :o
714 2014-12-17 11:32:54 <sipa> :o
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719 2014-12-17 11:35:08 <sipa> field=gmp is about 22% faster (for verification) when not using gmp or GLV otherwise
720 2014-12-17 11:35:36 <sipa> on 32bit i mean
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723 2014-12-17 11:37:24 <hearn> good afternoon
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727 2014-12-17 11:40:41 <sipa> i'm going to delete field=gmp; we can very likely beat it by having x86 assembly for field mul/sqr, if performance is actually that relevant
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730 2014-12-17 11:41:18 <sipa> an alternative would be to just never select it through autodetection
731 2014-12-17 11:41:43 <sipa> as it has lower guarantees, but is perhaps useful as a simple reference implementation to compare with
732 2014-12-17 11:42:27 <wumpus> it's only simple if you don't consider the complexity in gmp itself, but yeah
733 2014-12-17 11:43:29 <sipa> yeah, i don't mean encouraging its use for production
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735 2014-12-17 11:44:32 <wumpus> yes I understood what you meant, the gmp code may be easiest to follow
736 2014-12-17 11:44:44 <wumpus> hearn: hello
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739 2014-12-17 11:48:51 <sipa> wumpus: if that's the purpose i think i'd rather have a dead-simple totally-slow reference C implementation; that's likely even more readable
740 2014-12-17 11:51:01 <sipa> not arguing with you; more arguing with myself btw :)
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899 2014-12-17 15:03:37 <cfields> sipa: i meant to ask you about bitcoin forcing libsecp to -02 but completely forgot
900 2014-12-17 15:03:54 <cfields> i take it you're ok with not worrying about that for now?
901 2014-12-17 15:04:04 <sipa> nope
902 2014-12-17 15:04:39 <sipa> cfields: though we should have a way to pass flags to the subconfigure
903 2014-12-17 15:04:52 <sipa> --with-bignum=none, specifically
904 2014-12-17 15:04:56 <cfields> stupid language and un-answerable questions..
905 2014-12-17 15:05:04 <cfields> sipa: sure, pass it --with-bignum=none :)
906 2014-12-17 15:05:11 <cfields> the subconfigure inherits it
907 2014-12-17 15:05:20 <sipa> Ah.
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909 2014-12-17 15:06:02 <cfields> granted, not at all obvious. but afaik it's designed to work that way
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913 2014-12-17 15:06:27 <sipa> i would expect the bitcoin configure to complain about an unknown option
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917 2014-12-17 15:10:29 <cfields> looks like option-checking defaults to false when configure calls a sub-configure
918 2014-12-17 15:11:23 <sipa> it seems to work fine
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985 2014-12-17 16:42:05 <wumpus> re: 0.10, need some ACKs for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5485 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5481 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5253
986 2014-12-17 16:42:37 <wumpus> two are fixes for smartfee in the wallet, one extends mempool checks
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991 2014-12-17 16:57:19 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5485 could use some tests to verify
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994 2014-12-17 17:03:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: "I think that requires extra mention." can you suggest language? I was actually trying to make that clear with "Absolute maximum value"
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996 2014-12-17 17:04:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that didn't make it clear to me, I'd expect a wording like 'total fee', but I'm not native english so I may be looking at these things differently
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999 2014-12-17 17:10:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: 'this option is not like the others' may require a more verbose warning, not one word
1000 2014-12-17 17:11:20 <wumpus> although it's actually *more* intuitive than the others
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1003 2014-12-17 17:12:26 <wumpus> very little foot-shooting potential too. if you set it too low it results in not sending transactions
1004 2014-12-17 17:12:32 <wumpus> so maybe it's just ok.
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1006 2014-12-17 17:13:17 <gmaxwell> Adding 'total fee' in there seems reasonable to me.
1007 2014-12-17 17:13:43 <gmaxwell> and yes, it's what a lot of people have expected the fee controls to do in the past, even though it makes a bit less sense from the network perspective.
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1009 2014-12-17 17:14:14 <gmaxwell> I do worry we'll get some complaints, e.g. when people set it quite low and cannot send a 50k transaction... but its harmless at least.
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1014 2014-12-17 17:22:52 <wumpus> at least that has an easy fix
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1098 2014-12-17 18:32:28 <wumpus> in rest.cpp, there's a class RestErr and a function RESTERR that creates a RestErr and assigns fields. I can't think of a reason why it's not just a constructor.
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1101 2014-12-17 18:34:29 <jonasschnelli> wumpus RESTERR, truly. I can change this. RF_UNDEF needs also be removed.
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1103 2014-12-17 18:35:43 <wumpus> it's also not deriving from sd::exception
1104 2014-12-17 18:35:58 <wumpus> I'm not saying you should change it, I'm just trying to understand
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1106 2014-12-17 18:36:57 <wumpus> but yes RF_UNDEF is used so can certainly go
1107 2014-12-17 18:37:20 <wumpus> UNused
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1123 2014-12-17 19:02:41 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: JSONRPCError is also not derived from std::exception, both (RESTERR and JSONRPCError) could be subclasses of std::exception....
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1125 2014-12-17 19:09:44 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: at least in Python it's customary to always inherit from Exception, I'd suppose it's the same for c++, it makes reporting errors easier
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1127 2014-12-17 19:11:39 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: indeed. throwing objects not inherited from std::exception should be avoided IMO. But application behavior with error catching in REST/RPC looks generally okay.
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1183 2014-12-17 20:15:34 <prettymuchbryce> This is tangentially related to bitcoin, but I think it is probably the right audience. Does anyone know of any open source frameworks or building-blocks that exist for creating trustless decentralized systems ?
1184 2014-12-17 20:17:52 <Dizzle> A better question for #Bitcoin or #Bitcoin-Wizards.
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1189 2014-12-17 20:21:25 <wumpus> we're far from those things being generic enough that there are open source frameworks for that
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1191 2014-12-17 20:24:04 <arioBarzan> any news regarding block size limits? Surprisingly, the difficulty has decreased for last two adjustments. Since there is a chance that the hash power could follow a down trend, for some time, one could expect average time between the blocks become more than 10 minutes, and the transactions would probably have a hard time to get through.
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1194 2014-12-17 20:26:03 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Morcos is saying that we no longer prevent relaying 0 fee, 0 priority transactions.
1195 2014-12-17 20:26:27 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I'm sure we do
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1198 2014-12-17 20:28:58 <wumpus> see accepttomempool, if (fLimitFree && nFees < txMinFee)
1199 2014-12-17 20:30:00 <morcos> txMinFee is 0 for reasonably small transactions
1200 2014-12-17 20:30:21 <wumpus> that code hasn't changed for ages
1201 2014-12-17 20:30:37 <wumpus> yes, so larger transactions without fee are rejected
1202 2014-12-17 20:31:30 <morcos> but small, 0 fee transactions can be relayed up to the rate limit without regard to priority
1203 2014-12-17 20:31:57 <wumpus> sure
1204 2014-12-17 20:32:30 <wumpus> the reasoning is that miners will put them in a 'free area' in blocks
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1207 2014-12-17 20:33:39 <wumpus> afaik that's always been the case. but gmaxwell's 'no longer' implies that this changed recently?
1208 2014-12-17 20:33:45 <morcos> I think the question just comes down to whether the rate limiter is sufficiently strict and also whether higher priority transactions should have some precedence
1209 2014-12-17 20:34:07 <morcos> I wasn't implying it changed, I thought it was always like that, but always isn't a long time for me.. :)
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1211 2014-12-17 20:34:51 <prettymuchbryce> Wumpus I was thinking about trying to create a generic open source consensus module similar to ripple's algorithm.
1212 2014-12-17 20:35:10 * lechuga_ smdh
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1215 2014-12-17 20:36:39 <wumpus> morcos: I don't think it makes sense to change that logic, it works, though it is questionable anyway whether miners will keep including free transactions at all. But right now it's IMO fine.
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1238 2014-12-17 20:58:49 <voidDotClass> How do nodes running bitcoin find other nodes?
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1247 2014-12-17 21:03:03 <lechuga_> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery
1248 2014-12-17 21:03:42 <voidDotClass> ty
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1290 2014-12-17 21:34:24 <voidDotClass> lechuga_: I've read the wiki link you sent, but i'm still not completely clear. It says 'Nodes receive the callback address of remote nodes that connect to them.' How do the remote nodes find the node?
1291 2014-12-17 21:34:37 <voidDotClass> do they simply ping everyone that has a particular port open?
1292 2014-12-17 21:35:46 <voidDotClass> i.e when you first start a bitcoin client, how does it register with the network so other nodes can connect to it?
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1294 2014-12-17 21:39:06 <kadoban> voidDotClass: You may want to read closer, it lists several sources for nodes to connect to.
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1301 2014-12-17 21:53:39 <voidDotClass> I see, thanks. Where do the dnsseed sites come from? i.e who runs them?
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1307 2014-12-17 22:02:45 <jonasschnelli> voidDotClass: check https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/chainparams.cpp#L155
1308 2014-12-17 22:03:27 <voidDotClass> jonasschnelli: I see, but who runs these servers?
1309 2014-12-17 22:03:48 <jonasschnelli> static, and run by devs and service operators
1310 2014-12-17 22:03:58 <voidDotClass> ah
1311 2014-12-17 22:04:32 <jonasschnelli> just for seed, don't see them as kind of "master server"
1312 2014-12-17 22:05:18 <phantomcircuit> this is really more #bitcoin material
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1387 2014-12-17 23:48:09 <voidDotClass> Question. During mining, who sets how many zero bits are required to be found?
1388 2014-12-17 23:48:33 <voidDotClass> I.e when you hear about the difficulty 'increasing', who actually increases it? Since there's no central server.
1389 2014-12-17 23:48:44 <tdlfbx> voidDotClass: the target is recalculated once every 2016 blocks. look for RETARGET in the code or your debug.log.
1390 2014-12-17 23:48:47 <tdlfbx> Everyone calculates it.
1391 2014-12-17 23:49:03 netg2 is now known as netg
1392 2014-12-17 23:49:48 <tdlfbx> Someone remind me...with multisig addresses there is no canonical ordering of the pubkeys, correct? Is there a BIP to require ordering of the keys?
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1394 2014-12-17 23:50:12 <voidDotClass> tdlfbx: So it increases automatically in the software being run by the clients?
1395 2014-12-17 23:50:23 <tdlfbx> voidDotClass: yes.
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1398 2014-12-17 23:51:12 <voidDotClass> So in the early days, when there might've only been 2-3 miners, what stopped the two miners from not upping the difficulty and hoarding coins?
1399 2014-12-17 23:51:25 <voidDotClass> i.e staying at a low difficulty?
1400 2014-12-17 23:51:45 <sipa> #bitcoin please
1401 2014-12-17 23:52:01 <tdlfbx> The change in difficulty, and how to calculate it is encoded in bitcoind
1402 2014-12-17 23:52:04 <voidDotClass> I think this is a dev question.
1403 2014-12-17 23:52:20 <tdlfbx> voidDotClass: let's go to #bitcoin.
1404 2014-12-17 23:52:44 <sipa> ok then: the formula for computing the difficulty is a block validity rule; if you set it wromg, your block is invalid
1405 2014-12-17 23:52:50 <tdlfbx> Mine is bitcoin-dev. I'm going to write a BIP for canonical ordering of multisig keys, unless there's one already, or it's a bad idea.
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1408 2014-12-17 23:54:33 <sipa> tdlfbx: it's been suggested before, but never took off
1409 2014-12-17 23:54:53 <sipa> or some programs are doing so... and they can
1410 2014-12-17 23:55:30 <voidDotClass> Assume this is the very early days, there's only 2-3 miners. What stops someone from recompiling the bitcoind software but changing it to not up the difficulty after 2016 blocks? If out of the 2-3 early miners, 2 use this rogue version, then their blocks would be considered valid even if they didn't up the difficulty
1411 2014-12-17 23:55:55 <sipa> voidDotClass: nothing
1412 2014-12-17 23:56:09 <sipa> but nobody else would accept their blocks
1413 2014-12-17 23:56:29 <sipa> please, miners do not set the rules
1414 2014-12-17 23:56:33 <sipa> full nodes do
1415 2014-12-17 23:56:41 <sipa> mimers try to.satisfy the.rules
1416 2014-12-17 23:57:05 <voidDotClass> The majority sets the rules, right. So if the majority use a rogue version of the software, then their blocks would be considered valid?
1417 2014-12-17 23:57:14 <sipa> NO
1418 2014-12-17 23:57:26 <sipa> forget majority
1419 2014-12-17 23:57:41 <sipa> bitcoin is a zero-trust system
1420 2014-12-17 23:57:50 <sipa> every node checks all the rules
1421 2014-12-17 23:57:58 <sipa> miners do not choose the.rules
1422 2014-12-17 23:58:20 <sipa> miners make us choose between.otherwise fully *valid* blocks
1423 2014-12-17 23:58:53 <sipa> they cannot change the rules, or they start living.in their own little.world, but the rest.of the system.ignores them
1424 2014-12-17 23:59:07 <sipa> sorry for typing, small screen
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1426 2014-12-17 23:59:54 <voidDotClass> I see