1 2014-12-19 00:02:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: did BE get merged already?
   2 2014-12-19 00:02:56 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: we need the anti-idiotic-censorship version of dnsseed. I'm tired of randomly not being able to get to sipa's website.
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   5 2014-12-19 00:04:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I haven't had issues since configuring it to be less aggressive crawling
   6 2014-12-19 00:05:29 <gmaxwell> his issues haven't seemed to be crawling related. It's just that the dnsseed name resolves to hosts sometimes that end up on malware lists.
   7 2014-12-19 00:05:39 <gmaxwell> I believe opendns still blocks it as we speak, for example.
   8 2014-12-19 00:05:54 <hearn> hah
   9 2014-12-19 00:05:58 <hearn> another reason not to use DNS, i guess
  10 2014-12-19 00:06:09 <gmaxwell> So I'd previously though we should a v2 type seed under another domain that just stupidly xors the ips it returns.
  11 2014-12-19 00:06:25 <gmaxwell> it's not being intentionally blocked, its just automation as far as I can tell.
  12 2014-12-19 00:06:31 <Luke-Jr> oh
  13 2014-12-19 00:07:14 <Luke-Jr> hm! I wonder if my problems could have been trying to connect to a honeypot IP
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  15 2014-12-19 00:07:26 <gmaxwell> hearn: dns has some scaling and privacy advantages, due to caching in the dns hierarchy. Otherwise it stinks. (And I'd love if the seeds could return signed results for example)
  16 2014-12-19 00:07:50 <hearn> signed or just SSLd
  17 2014-12-19 00:08:17 <gmaxwell> well I'd like a bad dns seed to leave evidence of it, but even ssl would be an improvement in that particular respect.
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  19 2014-12-19 00:08:42 <gmaxwell> But it means the operator of the server gets pretty strong visiblity into whos using the software; which we consider generally undesirable (at least for bitcoin core)
  20 2014-12-19 00:09:18 <gmaxwell> I looked into trying to pack some signatures into dns but the amount of dns tampering that goes on in recursive resolvers seems too great.
  21 2014-12-19 00:09:30 <Luke-Jr> DNSSEC?
  22 2014-12-19 00:10:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: also gets stripped by resolvers. (just packing some signature data into txt records is likely more robust than dnssec)... seems to be getting better though.
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  51 2014-12-19 00:57:42 <Luke-Jr> what would be thoughts on an optional (at compile and run time) fork-isolated SWIG interface for CNodePolicy so users can drop in Python/Ruby/Perl scripts to control that behaviour? anything else that might benefit from scripting?
  52 2014-12-19 01:04:14 <gmaxwell> while I'm supportive of the concept, optional compile time only is more configurations that would need tesitng that likely wouldn't get it.
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  57 2014-12-19 01:11:31 <average> this is crazy, I've been looking for a bitcoin-paid gig and can't find any
  58 2014-12-19 01:11:53 <moa> http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/12/18/2346238 might be relevant for some
  59 2014-12-19 01:11:54 <average> I've received some offers, but mostly just gambling/casino/betting
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  61 2014-12-19 01:12:12 <average> I'm kinda annoyed I can't find any bitcoin-paid gig, it's so annoying
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  68 2014-12-19 01:22:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Travis is nice.
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  74 2014-12-19 01:36:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, we've gone around and around on better dnsseeds....anyone care to implement?
  75 2014-12-19 01:36:28 <BlueMatt> not gmaxwell, this is a really good beginners project
  76 2014-12-19 01:36:35 <BlueMatt> (at least the bitcoin core part)
  77 2014-12-19 01:36:47 <BlueMatt> (we need a bitcoin-good-beginners-project@ ml)
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  80 2014-12-19 01:42:25 <gmaxwell> hearn: I think there is some broken implementation flooding getaddrs now for third party nodes. I noticed while testing some address discovery changes that my test address got announced even though my host never announced it.
  81 2014-12-19 01:42:49 <BlueMatt> was only a matter of time before someone did that
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  83 2014-12-19 01:42:53 <gmaxwell> I've been unable to find the source. It's moderately obnoxious... technically were robust to that, but it certantly makes things slower.
  84 2014-12-19 01:43:53 <gmaxwell> I guess with 13 never run bitcoin IP addresses I can figure out precisely which node is doing it, if it is only a single node.
  85 2014-12-19 01:45:09 <gmaxwell> (assign each reachable node an index, have each test IP connect to nodes when index&(1<<tester) ... see which bitpattern gets announced involuntarily)
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  90 2014-12-19 02:05:21 <hearn> BlueMatt: it's done already
  91 2014-12-19 02:05:23 <hearn> BlueMatt: https://github.com/mikehearn/httpseed
  92 2014-12-19 02:05:42 <hearn> supports serving seed data over DNS, HTTP with signed protocol buffers, also JSON, XML and HTML
  93 2014-12-19 02:06:14 <hearn> also can restrict results (when using http) using a service flag bitmask
  94 2014-12-19 02:06:24 <hearn> total lines of code: 570. not bad, i think
  95 2014-12-19 02:07:11 <hearn> it doesn't do a whole lot of testing of peers though. it will probably include some peers that are behind. will fix that tomorrow and let it loose on the main network.
  96 2014-12-19 02:07:22 <BlueMatt> nice
  97 2014-12-19 02:07:26 <BlueMatt> yea, sounds good
  98 2014-12-19 02:09:10 <hearn> i'd like to move SPV clients to using HTTP + signed data over time. i don't think the minor IP obfuscation DNS provides is worth much, given that anyone can collect random IPs of random users by just running a regular node anyway. governments can just examine netflow data to find bitcoin users if they care.
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 101 2014-12-19 02:13:46 <gmaxwell> hearn: governments are the only or always most interesting threat, also be mindful of selective partioning power.
 102 2014-12-19 02:16:18 <average> BlueMatt: hey I'll implement that
 103 2014-12-19 02:16:42 <average> oh , looks like someone already did it
 104 2014-12-19 02:16:47 <BlueMatt> nono
 105 2014-12-19 02:16:54 <BlueMatt> just mask out dnsseeds
 106 2014-12-19 02:17:04 <BlueMatt> maybe a TXT or oher record with a signature over results
 107 2014-12-19 02:17:07 <average> that's how it is these days, people are like "oh look, there's something useful i could implement" and 10min later turns out someone else did it
 108 2014-12-19 02:17:17 <BlueMatt> and mask the values with an XOR mask or something simple
 109 2014-12-19 02:17:28 <BlueMatt> hearn: implemented something very different
 110 2014-12-19 02:18:23 <hearn> average: there's tons of things to implement ...
 111 2014-12-19 02:19:22 <average> hearn: like what
 112 2014-12-19 02:19:23 <hearn> average: the bitcoin world is not lacking for fun, small tasks :)
 113 2014-12-19 02:19:32 <hearn> average: pick a skill, then i'll tell you some ideas
 114 2014-12-19 02:19:36 <BlueMatt> average: like the things I just said 10 seconds ago?
 115 2014-12-19 02:19:55 <BlueMatt> the stuff I said was a good beginner's get-into-bitcoin-core project is not related to what hearn just did
 116 2014-12-19 02:20:02 <BlueMatt> well, related, but not the same
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 118 2014-12-19 02:21:27 <hearn> i'm not sure hacking DNS would count as a beginners project.
 119 2014-12-19 02:22:07 <BlueMatt> XOR ip addresses coming back from dnsseeds with a static mask? sure it is!
 120 2014-12-19 02:22:15 <BlueMatt> not really hacking dns at all
 121 2014-12-19 02:23:15 <hearn> rollout? serving it via BIND as your seed requires? avoiding random validation errors from misc DNS stacks that don't like invalid IP addresses in the response ... ?
 122 2014-12-19 02:23:38 <hearn> i really don't think it's worth trying to mangle DNS into having more features. it just wasn't designed for this.
 123 2014-12-19 02:23:39 <BlueMatt> meh
 124 2014-12-19 02:23:56 <BlueMatt> dnsseeds serving the results will upgrade themselves, I'm not worried about that
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 126 2014-12-19 02:24:10 <BlueMatt> do and dns stacks block 0.0.0.0/255.255.255.255 in a response?
 127 2014-12-19 02:24:14 <BlueMatt> any
 128 2014-12-19 02:24:17 <hearn> it's not the seeds that is the problem, it's the clients needing to know whether they are supposed to use the magic xor trick or not
 129 2014-12-19 02:24:29 <BlueMatt> well you put it under a different subdomain
 130 2014-12-19 02:24:33 <gmaxwell> hearn: huh? you just do that via a different subdomain.
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 133 2014-12-19 02:25:29 <hearn> yeah, exactly, so at that point you're basically doing a new protocol that clients have to be upgraded to use, parallel to the existing one. may as well switch to a more robust format whilst doing it
 134 2014-12-19 02:25:50 <BlueMatt> robust format like what?
 135 2014-12-19 02:25:51 <hearn> at any rate, stuff that requires lots of coordination between a bunch of people isn't really a beginners project
 136 2014-12-19 02:25:59 <BlueMatt> you cant do http or you're adding a new phone-home feature
 137 2014-12-19 02:26:30 <BlueMatt> if it were implemented reasonably in bitcoin core, I'd wager a bet at least two/three of the dnsseeds would have support within a few weeks
 138 2014-12-19 02:26:33 <BlueMatt> and thats enough to rollout
 139 2014-12-19 02:26:50 <gmaxwell> (well be more specific about 'you' .. phone home features are not something I consider desirable in Bitcoin core)
 140 2014-12-19 02:27:06 <gmaxwell> Other software can do what it likes, of course.
 141 2014-12-19 02:27:10 <hearn> it already "phones home" when talking to the existing seeds. that's pretty fundamental to p2p networking.
 142 2014-12-19 02:27:23 <BlueMatt> well, dns is nice because it has this built-in anonymity network
 143 2014-12-19 02:27:28 <BlueMatt> where the seed only hears about your isp
 144 2014-12-19 02:27:30 <BlueMatt> not you
 145 2014-12-19 02:28:08 <gmaxwell> hearn: it generally doesn't. It only polls dns seeds when it cant connect fast, and the results are cached and they're all required to have non-zero ttls... and even when a request goes all the way up, they see the recursive resolver, not the user.
 146 2014-12-19 02:28:21 <Luke-Jr> I find it a bit disturbing that virtually all the big mining rigs sold do phone-home
 147 2014-12-19 02:28:34 <hearn> a seed can always return one of its own IPs and find you when you connect to it, if it wanted to. meanwhile, with dns the requests and responses are all unencrypted and cannot easily have any metadata attached
 148 2014-12-19 02:28:44 <hearn> like e.g. node keys for a future authd/crypted version of p2p
 149 2014-12-19 02:28:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that you can turn it off on the spondoolies may be my one contribution to their feature set.
 150 2014-12-19 02:29:29 <BlueMatt> hearn: even if a seed returned /only/ its ip address, bitcoin core would not always connect to it
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 152 2014-12-19 02:29:40 <BlueMatt> (of course this is bitcoin core running from scratch, not ever been run before)
 153 2014-12-19 02:29:58 <BlueMatt> and this is also why we need more dnsseeds
 154 2014-12-19 02:30:04 <BlueMatt> to be more robust in this regard
 155 2014-12-19 02:31:02 <moa> is v0.10 rc yet?
 156 2014-12-19 02:31:13 * hearn -> bed
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 158 2014-12-19 02:31:17 <BlueMatt> http://bitcoin010rc.yet
 159 2014-12-19 02:31:21 <gmaxwell> moa: why do you ask?
 160 2014-12-19 02:31:21 <BlueMatt> someone go built it!
 161 2014-12-19 02:31:38 <moa> gmaxwell: just wondered ... nothing nefarious
 162 2014-12-19 02:31:42 <moa> random thought
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 166 2014-12-19 02:40:44 <s1w> is yet even a tld? :P
 167 2014-12-19 02:40:56 <moa> not yet
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 237 2014-12-19 05:23:14 <jcrubino> is there a server to nslookup testnet peers?
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 249 2014-12-19 05:35:37 <jcrubino> how can I lookup over the network testnet peers?
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 276 2014-12-19 06:46:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I haven't even put up my BE code as a pull yet, but you help it along by reviewing/testing #5490
 277 2014-12-19 06:47:25 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: if you really want to test on a BE device, that'd be cool and I could send my private tree for that, but no guarantees with that :)
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 283 2014-12-19 07:03:47 <wumpus> seems to work fine though; it passes all the tests, it could sync the testnet chain up to ~90% (after that I stopped it), it could also take part on the main chain as a normal node
 284 2014-12-19 07:03:56 <wumpus> there's still an issue with DNS seeding
 285 2014-12-19 07:05:06 <wumpus> the rest is cleanups and autoconf-isms for endian detection
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 322 2014-12-19 08:03:15 <jonasschnelli> DNS Seeds: Are all seeds based on sipa/bitcoin-seeder?
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 327 2014-12-19 08:09:00 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: IIRC jgarzik's is a static BIND nameserver
 328 2014-12-19 08:09:42 <jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: but his ones seems not to be in the chainparams.cpp?
 329 2014-12-19 08:09:49 <average> lots of discussions about DNS these days, eh ?
 330 2014-12-19 08:09:52 <wumpus> question about build system: where does WORDS_BIGENDIAN get defined?
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 332 2014-12-19 08:10:05 <wumpus> I see it is used in crypto/common.h, but it's referenced nowehere
 333 2014-12-19 08:10:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: autotools
 334 2014-12-19 08:10:48 <jonasschnelli> wumpus is it not defined in config.h?
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 336 2014-12-19 08:10:59 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but how? what sets it? it's not correctly set
 337 2014-12-19 08:11:39 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 338 2014-12-19 08:11:47 <wumpus> ok this is weird; in my x86 bitcoin build I see a #define WORDS_BIGENDIAN in bitcoin-config.h
 339 2014-12-19 08:11:54 <Luke-Jr> not sure, I think I actually have my own endian-detection code in BFGMiner, but i forget why
 340 2014-12-19 08:11:55 <wumpus> in my mipsbe build, no such thing appears
 341 2014-12-19 08:12:17 <wumpus> ... you'd guess it would be the other way around, though it ends up undefined in both cases
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 344 2014-12-19 08:13:18 <wumpus> OH doh, I've commented out the AC_C_BIGENDIAN([AC_MSG_ERROR("Big Endian not supported")])
 345 2014-12-19 08:13:29 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: did you had a look at AC_C_BIGENDIAN? https://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.60/html_node/C-Compiler.html
 346 2014-12-19 08:13:30 <wumpus> probably should be replaced by the non-error-throwing variant
 347 2014-12-19 08:13:30 <Luke-Jr> >_<
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 349 2014-12-19 08:14:14 <Luke-Jr> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=449944
 350 2014-12-19 08:14:32 <wumpus> it was sabotaging my build so I just commented it out, I can be stupid like that sometimes :-)
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 355 2014-12-19 08:18:06 <wumpus> that solved it.
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 360 2014-12-19 08:29:07 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: conclusion there appears to be 'it's buggy if you use AC_C_BIGENDIAN with parameters'
 361 2014-12-19 08:29:17 <wumpus> I've just removed the parameters, so it should be ok
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 363 2014-12-19 08:33:37 <wumpus> when it's not horribly broken, autotools can be pretty neat
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 366 2014-12-19 08:37:22 <moa> open source
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 368 2014-12-19 08:38:58 <Luke-Jr> everything can be neat when not horribly broken
 369 2014-12-19 08:39:00 <Luke-Jr> except systemd.
 370 2014-12-19 08:39:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: though in principle we shouldn't need that define at all, as long as there's endian.h
 371 2014-12-19 08:39:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: there isn't, on Windows
 372 2014-12-19 08:39:34 <Luke-Jr> IIRC
 373 2014-12-19 08:39:55 <wumpus> so suppose I need to write one in compat/..h 
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 375 2014-12-19 08:40:09 <Luke-Jr> shouldn't need to
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 378 2014-12-19 08:40:25 <wumpus> oh?
 379 2014-12-19 08:40:33 <Luke-Jr> does AC_C_BIGENDIAN fail if it's missing?
 380 2014-12-19 08:40:40 <Luke-Jr> hm, maybe that was why I hand-rolled it
 381 2014-12-19 08:40:42 <wumpus> I don't think so
 382 2014-12-19 08:40:48 <wumpus> it works on windows
 383 2014-12-19 08:41:02 <Luke-Jr> ok, then not sure why we'd need an endian.h
 384 2014-12-19 08:41:04 <wumpus> in crypto/common.h we actually do hand-roll then if endian.h is not there
 385 2014-12-19 08:41:18 <wumpus> because htobe16 and such
 386 2014-12-19 08:41:36 <wumpus> nice functions that swap the bytes for you without having to call bswap16/32/64 which also doesn't exist on every platform
 387 2014-12-19 08:42:00 <wumpus> *conditionally* needs to be in that sentence
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 389 2014-12-19 08:42:51 <Luke-Jr> oh, maybe that was why I hand-rolled it.. I'm checking like 4 different byteswap methods :D
 390 2014-12-19 08:43:07 <wumpus> but I'm going to move that from crypto/ to compat, and just implement those functions if they don't exist
 391 2014-12-19 08:44:10 <wumpus> if they exist, you of course want to use the platform's ones because they would use special instructions or compiler intrinsics
 392 2014-12-19 08:44:46 <Luke-Jr> for sym in bswap_ __builtin_bswap __bswap_ __swap swap OSSwapInt; do for headerfile in '' byteswap.h endian.h sys/endian.h libkern/OSByteOrder.h; do
 393 2014-12-19 08:44:52 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 394 2014-12-19 08:45:17 <Luke-Jr> maybe I should make a .m4 file of this we can just copy?
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 396 2014-12-19 08:46:05 <wumpus> well the code already exists in bitcoin's config in another form
 397 2014-12-19 08:46:26 <wumpus> for the crypto common
 398 2014-12-19 08:47:13 <Luke-Jr> not that git grep found for me, but ok.
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 429 2014-12-19 09:29:31 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: regarding https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5503 existing VINs: so this would mean only support for existing VINs which are unspent wtx?
 430 2014-12-19 09:32:36 <jonasschnelli> IMO the VINs must be signable to calculate the correct fee
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 464 2014-12-19 10:36:32 <fanquake> When commits are labelled as MOVEONLY, they should be completely identical, line for line code movements right? Or am I thinking too pedantically?
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 492 2014-12-19 11:29:46 <wumpus> generally, yes, although we don't care about spaces and such
 493 2014-12-19 11:30:15 <wumpus> and sometimes you need small context-specific changes to be able to move things around in the first place, i.e. header changes and such
 494 2014-12-19 11:30:45 <wumpus> I don't make a fuss out of those
 495 2014-12-19 11:30:52 <wumpus> the important part is that there are no code changes
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 497 2014-12-19 11:31:05 <wumpus> no slightly different logic etc
 498 2014-12-19 11:31:31 <wumpus> they should be easy to replicate and check
 499 2014-12-19 11:32:16 <fanquake> Yep, was thinking line for line identical would be a little too far. (impossible in some cases)
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 501 2014-12-19 11:33:10 <wumpus> yes
 502 2014-12-19 11:33:55 <fanquake> Just wanted to clarify before commenting.
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 559 2014-12-19 13:05:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5510
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 567 2014-12-19 13:14:18 <wumpus> I've cleaned it up to build system changes + a series of independent fixes
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 580 2014-12-19 13:31:15 <rubensayshi> is it 'safe' to store a BIP39 mnemonic without futher protection/encryption when it is used with a passphrase by a user? ie for a server storing it for usage in a webwallet (like bc.info)
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 621 2014-12-19 14:12:25 <sipa> wumpus: i wonder whether we can rely on any in-memory representation of floating point numbers?
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 623 2014-12-19 14:13:24 * sipa reads ieee 754
 624 2014-12-19 14:13:30 <wumpus> sipa: right now I'm assuming that floating point numbers have the same endianness as integers, and that they have standard IEE 754 format
 625 2014-12-19 14:14:02 <wumpus> bitcoin will not run on any platforms that do not satisfy those requirements, not after the BE changes either
 626 2014-12-19 14:14:09 <sipa> wumpus: maybe adding a simple unit test with a bunch of floating point constants, serialized, and compared with hardcoded binary form?
 627 2014-12-19 14:14:14 <wumpus> sipa: good idea
 628 2014-12-19 14:14:41 <wumpus> I have a testcase serialize_floats() with //TODO to remind me of that
 629 2014-12-19 14:15:09 <wumpus> btw src/txmempool.cpp performs a cardinal sin: it serializes a long
 630 2014-12-19 14:15:24 <wumpus> that's why travis is failing right now
 631 2014-12-19 14:15:48 <sipa> i really like the serialization changes
 632 2014-12-19 14:16:11 <sipa> it was pretty crazy to just define serialization for int/short/long and just assuming their sizes are known
 633 2014-12-19 14:16:23 <wumpus> yes, regardless of endian this is an improvement
 634 2014-12-19 14:16:24 <wumpus> indeed
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 638 2014-12-19 14:19:42 <sipa> wumpus: problem with the #ifdef's with shortcuts is that we really need to make sure both cases are tested
 639 2014-12-19 14:20:16 <wumpus> sipa: I'm fine with removing the shortcuts, I've just left that open in case people would complain that Im making things slower
 640 2014-12-19 14:20:41 <wumpus> but a travis for big-endian would be nice! :-)
 641 2014-12-19 14:21:06 <sipa> i'll benchmark changing blockheader.GetHash() to SerializeHash(*this)
 642 2014-12-19 14:21:21 <sipa> if it doesn't matter there, it probably doesn't matter anywhere
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 656 2014-12-19 14:37:28 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, My seed is dnspark.net's farm
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 669 2014-12-19 14:56:16 <bsm117532> So looking through the code, I see a few mentions of improving the handling of time (e.g. GetAdjustedTime) and possibly using NTP rather than median peer time.  What is the status of this work and where do the lead devs want this to go?  I ran into RADclock the other day, which may be a neat way to embed a high-precision network clock, independent of the system clock.
 670 2014-12-19 14:56:51 <sipa> NTP is centralized; using it as an optional and configurable extra time source, sure
 671 2014-12-19 14:57:03 <sipa> but if you can do that, why didn't you just configure your system time to use NTP?
 672 2014-12-19 14:57:30 <bsm117532> That's the impression I got...that devs have no interest in measuring time.  That's not what I got reading the code.
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 674 2014-12-19 14:57:51 <sipa> the comments in the code referring to this are over 4 years old, i think
 675 2014-12-19 14:57:55 <sipa> we should update those
 676 2014-12-19 14:58:31 <bsm117532> I like this one: "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three."
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 678 2014-12-19 14:58:48 <sipa> that comment has been in the code since i first saw it, i think
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 680 2014-12-19 14:59:14 <bsm117532> And I like the idea of adding an NTP clock source, how it gets *used* is another matter.  Clearly mean peer time should not be totally removed.
 681 2014-12-19 14:59:27 <sipa> in fact, that comment was in 0.1.5
 682 2014-12-19 15:00:20 <sipa> i think gmaxwell has some opinions about time handling
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 684 2014-12-19 15:00:32 <sipa> i'm not very worried - we don't rely on very accurate clocks anyway
 685 2014-12-19 15:00:33 <bsm117532> So to my question: what timing-related things do people want to see?  Or is the answer "don't touch that"?
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 687 2014-12-19 15:02:35 <wumpus> my answer would be "don't touch that" unless you have explicit permission from gmaxwell :)
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 690 2014-12-19 15:03:23 <wumpus> that NTP comment is really old; artforz actually once implemented NTP client in bitcoind, but it wasn't regarded necessary
 691 2014-12-19 15:03:33 <wumpus> in general I'd like to avoid dependencies on other network services
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 693 2014-12-19 15:04:03 <bsm117532> wumpus: I was thinking of embedding ntp, rather than depending on an external service.
 694 2014-12-19 15:04:09 <wumpus> eh
 695 2014-12-19 15:04:29 <wumpus> it would still depend on ntp servers right?
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 697 2014-12-19 15:04:33 <bsm117532> Yes.
 698 2014-12-19 15:04:34 <wumpus> thats what I mean
 699 2014-12-19 15:04:47 <wumpus> we just removed the dependency on external 'what is my ip' servers
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 701 2014-12-19 15:05:05 <sipa> well, i'm sure we could replace the "use mean time of peers" by something that uses something like ntp, used inside the p2p protocol between bitcoin nodes
 702 2014-12-19 15:05:11 <wumpus> oh, sure
 703 2014-12-19 15:05:14 <sipa> but i'm not sure we want that
 704 2014-12-19 15:05:16 <bsm117532> Frankly I'm very surprised that everyone here is so anti-time.  the financial world is extremely dependent on it.  Bills become due, interest gets paid, etc, all on time.
 705 2014-12-19 15:05:43 <bsm117532> there are undoubtedly timelock vulnerabilities if your clock is wrong.
 706 2014-12-19 15:06:00 <sipa> bsm117532: and we already have a network clock with an accuracy of ~hours
 707 2014-12-19 15:06:01 <wumpus> you could propose a P2P change, though I don't think it will get a lot of attention unless there are clear advantages
 708 2014-12-19 15:06:31 <sipa> bsm117532: and it relies on network nodes in general having a clock themselves that has around ~1 hour of accuracy
 709 2014-12-19 15:06:54 <bsm117532> Given that the accuracy of NTP is ~milliseconds...
 710 2014-12-19 15:07:03 <sipa> using NTP means extra requirements on nodes, without improving the result: the "blockchain clock" won't get any more accurate as a result
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 712 2014-12-19 15:07:32 <sipa> if you have another service built on top of bitcoin that needs more accurate time, sure, go ahead and use it
 713 2014-12-19 15:08:32 <bsm117532> gmaxwell what's your time-related wishlist?
 714 2014-12-19 15:08:51 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: that people like you stop thinking NTP solves anything thats interesting to bitcoin?
 715 2014-12-19 15:08:54 <gmaxwell> :)
 716 2014-12-19 15:09:02 <bsm117532> hahaa
 717 2014-12-19 15:09:50 <gmaxwell> NTP accuracy is milliseconds, if your network is totally symetric, the servers are honest, their servers are honest, and NTP hadn't _YET AGAIN_ made everyone's time a whole second off because it inserted a false leapsecond, on account of being so fragile that it fails randomly.
 718 2014-12-19 15:11:59 <gmaxwell> I like time. But for bitcoin itself precision is not very important, and a quest for precision can introduce vulerabilities that actually matter. I would like there to exist some cryptographically stronger time services, and I'm slowly on working on stuff to create some things for that; though thats largely external to bitcoin itself.
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 721 2014-12-19 15:13:57 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: if you were to make all nodes depend on ntp, a network attacker could pretty trivially partition the network; because NTP (as its actually deployed) is completely unauthenticated and doesn't have stronger features like modling the local oscillators worst case error to limit how much you can trick it (and even if it did worst case error from typical hardware is pretty huge. :( )
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 723 2014-12-19 15:14:34 <bsm117532> Oh I agree.  Hence not depending on it totally.
 724 2014-12-19 15:15:30 <wumpus> indeed, decentralized time synchronization is interesting, it's just that bitcoin doesn't need it so in that narrow scope it's not interesting
 725 2014-12-19 15:16:17 <wumpus> and this -dev channel only has a very narrow focus
 726 2014-12-19 15:16:22 <wumpus> would be more of a #bitcoin-wizards topic maybe
 727 2014-12-19 15:16:25 <gmaxwell> There is just nothing that we do that has any strong dependance on it at all. Though times on the network are in practice accurate to within a second, there is nothing in bitcoin that needs them anywhere near that accurate. I had though about changing the precision of the time messages and including a sane dicipline algorithim, but it would increase fingerprinting.
 728 2014-12-19 15:16:32 <sipa> interesting how bitcoin v0.1.5 contains a comment 'todo: get time from ntp servers'
 729 2014-12-19 15:17:30 <bsm117532> I kind of think of it as a problem someone else should solve.  A financial system needs it, but shouldn't re-invent the wheel, nor totally eschew time measurement (as bitcoin is trying to do).
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 731 2014-12-19 15:17:41 <bsm117532> Well wumpus I am asking about specific code contributions.
 732 2014-12-19 15:18:05 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: you keep speaking in generalities "A financial system needs it" ... they also need oxygen. And?
 733 2014-12-19 15:18:17 <bsm117532> let me be really specific.  block timestamps are allowed to be non-monotonic, correct?  What advantages does that confer?
 734 2014-12-19 15:18:23 <wumpus> we have doxygen!
 735 2014-12-19 15:19:21 <sipa> bsm117532: i think you look at it the wrong way; clocks are something bitcoin uses; not something it provides
 736 2014-12-19 15:19:34 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: it prevents an attack where a moderate hashpower miner forces everyones time forward, and resulting reorg when people try to prevent it. If you have some application which needs a 'monotonic time' from blocks, you can simply run a rolling maximum over the timestamps. The constraint would purely reduce available information.
 737 2014-12-19 15:19:39 <sipa> bsm117532: why increase requirements on that it uses without getting a better outcome?
 738 2014-12-19 15:19:54 <sipa> bsm117532: if another part of a financial system needs an accurate clock, then make it use one
 739 2014-12-19 15:20:40 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin itself cannot provide one. (At least not one with high precision)
 740 2014-12-19 15:20:47 <sipa> bsm117532: bitcoin does not and cannot provide an accurate clock (if you're talking about the ~second range), simply due to propagation delays across the planet alone
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 744 2014-12-19 15:21:17 <bsm117532> sipa: ping times can be accurately measured too.
 745 2014-12-19 15:21:25 <sipa> so?
 746 2014-12-19 15:21:46 <sipa> that measures latecny, not global time
 747 2014-12-19 15:22:02 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: that doesn't solve the problem. One way ping times cannot be measured. The internet is not symmetrical. And every host isn't directly connected to every other host, and intermediate hosts could be dishonest.
 748 2014-12-19 15:22:14 <sipa> i'm really not sure what problem you are solving, or what better outcome you think you can get
 749 2014-12-19 15:22:19 <wumpus> if you need ntp, then use ntp? bitcoin is not meant as a swiss knife of everything that is remotely interesting to have
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 751 2014-12-19 15:22:27 <sipa> to me it sounds like a "inaccurate clocks are ugly; this must be fixed, because... because..."
 752 2014-12-19 15:23:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: do be mindful of precision vs accuracy. :)  This is more imprecise not inaccurate. :)
 753 2014-12-19 15:23:18 <bsm117532> sipa: yes it's exactly that.  Then I saw some comments in the code along the same lines so I brought it up.
 754 2014-12-19 15:23:23 <gmaxwell> (we do somewhat depend on accurate but not precise time, since the inflation schedule is tied to it)
 755 2014-12-19 15:23:28 <sipa> so let's remove the comments
 756 2014-12-19 15:24:07 <gmaxwell> But the accuracy we need is something you can set with an almanaic and a sundial.
 757 2014-12-19 15:24:13 <Belxjander> okay...I have managed to get a bitcoind built from 0.10 sources cloned off git...
 758 2014-12-19 15:24:54 <Belxjander> How would I use the older torrent'ed blockchain image?
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 760 2014-12-19 15:25:50 <bsm117532> So look, you guys are going to get a PR from me sooner or later.  But every single thing I've brought up, you don't like.  (and I agree with much of your reasoning)  But the philosophy seems to be to not improve anything.  It's almost as though the code is too fragile and everyone is afraid of breaking something.  (FWIW I totally get the "what problem are you solving" arguments)
 761 2014-12-19 15:26:00 <bsm117532> So I ask you?  What would you most like to see?
 762 2014-12-19 15:26:32 <gmaxwell> You to actually answer the "what are you solving" question?
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 764 2014-12-19 15:26:41 <bsm117532> ;-)
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 766 2014-12-19 15:26:56 <sipa> Belxjander: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.10/doc/bootstrap.md
 767 2014-12-19 15:27:03 <gmaxwell> Some PR that twiddled around something where that question can't be answered is just going to be closed out of hand.
 768 2014-12-19 15:27:04 <sipa> bsm117532: yes; if it ain't broken, don't fix it
 769 2014-12-19 15:27:12 <wumpus> comment removed
 770 2014-12-19 15:27:26 <sipa> bsm117532: and yes, we are afraid of breaking things
 771 2014-12-19 15:27:34 <Belxjander> sipa:Thank you
 772 2014-12-19 15:27:45 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: many years ago I did invent an approach for a decenteralized time service that used bitcoin like consensus; though it requires participants to have additional hardware, and isn't super pratical. (I should probably update it, I know a _lot_ more about timekeeping now) ... It's not something Bitcoin itself has any use for, but you may personally find it interesting: http://people.xiph.org/~g
 773 2014-12-19 15:27:51 <gmaxwell> reg/decentralized-time.txt
 774 2014-12-19 15:28:02 <sipa> bsm117532: not that i think this shouldn't be touched at all, but there are costs (risks, review time, ...) and benefits (afaik for what you're trying to do: none)
 775 2014-12-19 15:28:05 <hearn> bsm117532: bitcoin effectively already uses NTP time
 776 2014-12-19 15:28:07 <bsm117532> gmaxwell, sipa agreed.  I'm not going to make a PR without a well-thought-out "what this is solving".
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 778 2014-12-19 15:28:16 <hearn> bsm117532: most operating systems will sync themselves via NTP these days
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 780 2014-12-19 15:28:54 <wumpus> indeed
 781 2014-12-19 15:29:12 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: I've read that.
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 785 2014-12-19 15:31:45 <bsm117532> One of my thoughts behind timing measurements is that bitcoin is now seeing difficulty drops, and if those fluctuations become extreme, this could be a problem.  The solution to this involves more accurately measuring the hashrate, which means more accurately measuring time.
 786 2014-12-19 15:32:10 <bsm117532> But I don't think I'll convince anyone that this is needed until it actually happens.
 787 2014-12-19 15:33:02 <sipa> i'm indeed not convinced; pretty much all work around "more accurately tracking hash rate" (and this is something that people have actually worked around in decent amounts in altcoins) hasn't been convinced at all
 788 2014-12-19 15:33:13 <sipa> *convincing
 789 2014-12-19 15:33:21 <bsm117532> Most of the work in altcoins has been utter bullshit on this topic.
 790 2014-12-19 15:33:31 <sipa> oh sure
 791 2014-12-19 15:33:32 <bsm117532> A lot of random spaghetti thrown at the wall, to see what sticks.
 792 2014-12-19 15:33:36 <sipa> but not all of it
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 794 2014-12-19 15:35:34 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: the difficulty dropping isn't "flucations" mining has just reached a profitability equlibrium for many parties.
 795 2014-12-19 15:35:41 <bsm117532> In the absence of an interesting obviously-needed idea, I'll likely implement this and put it out there as a PR.  If hashrate starts fluctuating wildly, I can point to it and it can be quickly incorporated...
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 797 2014-12-19 15:36:20 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: agreed.  There is an argument that this will never be needed for bitcoin itself, and it may be correct.
 798 2014-12-19 15:36:24 <sipa> bsm117532: you do realize that changing the retargetting code is a hard fork of the worst kind?
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 801 2014-12-19 15:36:34 <sipa> bsm117532: as in: change every piece of bitcoin software on the planet
 802 2014-12-19 15:36:51 <bsm117532> Yes
 803 2014-12-19 15:37:28 <bsm117532> Note: "in the absence of an interesting obviously-needed idea"
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 820 2014-12-19 15:54:57 <sipa> wumpus: replacing Hash(begin, end) in BlockHeader by SerializeHash slows GetHash down by 3% here
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 823 2014-12-19 15:58:30 <sipa> wumpus: 3300 cpu cycles to 3400 cycles
 824 2014-12-19 15:58:33 <sipa> per header
 825 2014-12-19 16:00:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: try an O3 compile?
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 829 2014-12-19 16:00:49 <wumpus> sipa: we'll take that for simpler code
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 835 2014-12-19 16:05:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: nearly no different (in both cases)
 836 2014-12-19 16:05:23 <sipa> 3292 and 3384 cycles
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 932 2014-12-19 19:00:26 <cfields> sipa: does this help make up some of the difference in ^^? https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/94a9d60952ab75b17bbb56595810ad2030a9d09f
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 935 2014-12-19 19:07:56 <wumpus> cfields: my guess is that most of the stuff will be inlined and optimized out, so it won't make much of a difference, but interesting to benchmark nevertheless
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 976 2014-12-19 20:28:04 <sipa> wumpus, gmaxwell: ugh, with -O3 -flto it's 4500 cycles...
 977 2014-12-19 20:28:11 <sipa> cfields: will try
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 980 2014-12-19 20:34:20 <sipa> wumpus, gmaxwell: my former measurement was wrong (I used CFLAGS=-O3 instead of CPPFLAGS); the gap is much smaller at O3
 981 2014-12-19 20:34:33 <sipa> around 2%
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 983 2014-12-19 20:35:33 <sipa> not that much either
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 986 2014-12-19 20:42:30 <sipa> cfields: less than 0.3% speedup, in both cases
 987 2014-12-19 20:42:49 <cfields> bleh, ok
 988 2014-12-19 20:42:59 <cfields> i figured it was all the instantiation slowing it down. guess not
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 991 2014-12-19 20:44:25 <sipa> i expect that all that gets inlined already (at -O3 at least, which i used for the benchmarks)
 992 2014-12-19 20:44:29 <sipa> let me benchmark your change again at -O2
 993 2014-12-19 20:47:02 <gmaxwell> Well thats why I suggested O3, to get things inlined.
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 998 2014-12-19 20:57:27 <sipa> cfields: so either my measurement has some weird periodic and systemic biases, but it seems your change slowed the existing code down a tiny bit, and made the SerializeHash(*this) version slightly faster at -O2, so they're only 1.1% apart anymore
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1000 2014-12-19 20:59:18 <sipa> i don't understand how it can possibly affect the first
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1002 2014-12-19 21:01:34 <cfields> odd, i don't see how it could possibly be slower either
1003 2014-12-19 21:02:47 * sipa compiles and measures again
1004 2014-12-19 21:04:37 <sipa> meh
1005 2014-12-19 21:04:51 alfacent has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1006 2014-12-19 21:04:52 <sipa> these numbers don't make sense, even though they seem statistically significant
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1008 2014-12-19 21:05:04 <cfields> back the other way this time?
1009 2014-12-19 21:05:06 <sipa> but we're talking about differences of 5ns per header
1010 2014-12-19 21:05:11 * sipa stops caring
1011 2014-12-19 21:05:27 <cfields> heh
1012 2014-12-19 21:05:37 <sipa> (averages and minima of 100 runs of 100k headers hashed each time)
1013 2014-12-19 21:06:02 <sipa> at a locked CPU speed, with nothing else but a terminal and an ssh client running
1014 2014-12-19 21:06:30 <gmaxwell> set the process to RT priority and pin it to a particular cpu? and turn off interrupts on that cpu?
1015 2014-12-19 21:06:41 <gmaxwell> :P
1016 2014-12-19 21:06:55 <gmaxwell> we can worry when it shows up in a profile.
1017 2014-12-19 21:07:11 * sipa thinks
1018 2014-12-19 21:07:24 <sipa> i don't we hash the same block header more than like 10 times during processing
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1020 2014-12-19 21:07:43 <sipa> ;;blocks
1021 2014-12-19 21:07:44 <gribble> 335003
1022 2014-12-19 21:08:08 <sipa> ;;calc [blocks]*10*1300/1000000000
1023 2014-12-19 21:08:09 <gribble> 4.355039
1024 2014-12-19 21:08:15 <sipa> hmm, 4s difference in total
1025 2014-12-19 21:08:45 <gmaxwell> it's certantly not the long pole in the tent. also, we could probably get 3% out of the hash just twiddling things in the implementation.
1026 2014-12-19 21:08:55 <sipa> or turning on -O3
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1032 2014-12-19 21:19:20 <sipa> gmaxwell, wumpus, cfields: short summary, changing the code, cfield's optimization or -O2 vs -O3, together they have no more effect than 4%
1033 2014-12-19 21:19:35 <sipa> -flto, on the other hand, slows it down by 30%
1034 2014-12-19 21:19:56 <cfields> wha?
1035 2014-12-19 21:20:02 <sipa> yes, slows down
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1037 2014-12-19 21:20:23 <cfields> old gcc?
1038 2014-12-19 21:20:27 <kanzure> fundrawtransaction is a neat idea https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5503
1039 2014-12-19 21:20:31 <gmaxwell> hm. lto usd to make a measurable improvement. I wonder what channged.
1040 2014-12-19 21:20:32 <sipa> 4.82
1041 2014-12-19 21:20:36 <sipa> 4.8.2
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1043 2014-12-19 21:20:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: i prefer the btc version of lto over the usd one
1044 2014-12-19 21:21:15 <kanzure> after looking at fundrawtransaction i have forgotten how to do this without fundrawtransaction
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1046 2014-12-19 21:21:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: this is microbenchmark
1047 2014-12-19 21:21:52 <sipa> kanzure: there was 1) createrawtransaction 2) ??? 3) signrawtransaction 4) sendrawtransaction
1048 2014-12-19 21:21:55 * gmaxwell bash microbenchmark; microbenchmark bad
1049 2014-12-19 21:22:12 <kanzure> sipa: right.. but the ??? part seems to be "implement your own coin selection"?
1050 2014-12-19 21:22:17 <sipa> kanzure: yup!
1051 2014-12-19 21:22:19 <gmaxwell> hm? the old procedure is listunspent ponder createrawtransaction
1052 2014-12-19 21:22:23 <kanzure> oh right, listunspent
1053 2014-12-19 21:22:32 <sipa> still, requires your own coin selection
1054 2014-12-19 21:24:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: even 40% slowdown
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1056 2014-12-19 21:24:38 <sipa> maybe it just ends up being able to inline more, and doing it, resulting in worse code cache?
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1058 2014-12-19 21:24:50 * sipa tries -O2 -flto
1059 2014-12-19 21:24:52 <kanzure> now i have to decide if i want to test this patch, backport the patch into an old tree, or live with master.
1060 2014-12-19 21:25:00 <cfields> sipa: you made sure to give -Ox in the link-line?
1061 2014-12-19 21:25:03 <sipa> yes
1062 2014-12-19 21:25:04 <gmaxwell> hm. wouldn't it be nice if you could say   "createraw [] {dest:10}  ; fundraw hex limit=5; signraw anyonecanpay" then pass it to someone wlse who can fundraw; signraw; sendraw?
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1064 2014-12-19 21:25:23 <cfields> (i only ask because -Ox semantics are different for lto, since the optims happen later)
1065 2014-12-19 21:25:29 <sipa> cfields: i'm aware
1066 2014-12-19 21:25:42 <sipa> ./configure --without-gui --disable-wallet CPPFLAGS="-g0 -O2 -flto" LDFLAGS="-g0 -O2 -flto"
1067 2014-12-19 21:25:44 <cfields> ok
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1070 2014-12-19 21:28:12 <cfields> sipa: hmm. You're looking for CXXFLAGS there. I think that's doing something different than what you're after
1071 2014-12-19 21:28:17 <cfields> notably leaving -g on
1072 2014-12-19 21:28:51 <cfields> CPPFLAGS = c pre-processor. CXXFLAGS=c++ compile flags
1073 2014-12-19 21:29:08 <sipa> i think you are right, but that it doesn't matter
1074 2014-12-19 21:29:18 <cfields> by using CPPFLAGS, you're leaving the default flags on in addition to yours
1075 2014-12-19 21:29:20 <sipa> as the preprocessor flags are passed to the same binaries
1076 2014-12-19 21:29:31 <sipa> also: (no debugging symbols found)
1077 2014-12-19 21:29:33 <cfields> a quick test shows that -g wins out over -g0
1078 2014-12-19 21:30:17 <sipa> isn't it just last one specified?
1079 2014-12-19 21:30:20 <cfields> (it depends on the order, but my test shows -g coming last)
1080 2014-12-19 21:30:22 <cfields> yes ^^
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1085 2014-12-19 21:39:52 <kanzure> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5503#issuecomment-67701462
1086 2014-12-19 21:39:59 <kanzure> (re: fundmany)
1087 2014-12-19 21:40:47 <sipa> what the hell would that do?
1088 2014-12-19 21:40:59 <sipa> fund multiple transactions at once?
1089 2014-12-19 21:41:07 <kanzure> batch coin selection
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1091 2014-12-19 21:41:26 <sipa> batch what?
1092 2014-12-19 21:41:35 <kanzure> sorry, i thought this would be more obvious, but i'm working from prior bitcoin-dev logs, so i figured i should write this down on the issue instead
1093 2014-12-19 21:42:03 <sipa> i don't see what is there to batch, but maybe i'm missing something
1094 2014-12-19 21:42:18 <sipa> maybe you're assuming it does something else then me (i haven't checked the code)
1095 2014-12-19 21:42:23 <kanzure> you can have many unfunded transactions and want to plan output spending all at once
1096 2014-12-19 21:42:57 <sipa> oh
1097 2014-12-19 21:43:05 <sipa> that's so obvious, why did i miss it?
1098 2014-12-19 21:43:05 <kanzure> instead of planning individually, which might get into some weirdo local minima or something
1099 2014-12-19 21:43:45 <gmaxwell> I don't see the advantage there, actually. Write one transaction, not multiple.  Or merge them before funding.
1100 2014-12-19 21:44:02 <kanzure> in my case i have multiple unfunded transactions that are not related to each other
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1102 2014-12-19 21:44:10 <gmaxwell> so? merge them.
1103 2014-12-19 21:44:27 <kanzure> that could compromise privacy
1104 2014-12-19 21:44:33 <gmaxwell> the txout is what someone gets paid. it wouldn't change the txout.
1105 2014-12-19 21:44:41 <kanzure> that *does* compromise privacy, rather
1106 2014-12-19 21:44:51 <gmaxwell> kanzure: doesn't follow for me, the joint coin selection (and shared coin pool) almost certantly does already.
1107 2014-12-19 21:45:06 <kanzure> i am not implementing coinjoin. i was actually routing old comments you made to me about batched coin selection.
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1109 2014-12-19 21:45:26 <gmaxwell> yea, batching is good, but I don't see why it's useful at the funding stage.
1110 2014-12-19 21:45:39 <kanzure> funding chooses different unspents, right?
1111 2014-12-19 21:46:06 <gmaxwell> E.g. batching done as create merge fund makes sense. But batching that doesn't merge the transactions is of reduced value. (doesn't save on the creation of change outputs, for example)
1112 2014-12-19 21:46:51 <kanzure> if you know the full set of transactions you are making (for the moment) then you can make better decisions about which unspents to use when funding each transaction in the set
1113 2014-12-19 21:47:03 <kanzure> i agree that you don't save on change addresses
1114 2014-12-19 21:47:19 <sipa> or it could use one's transaction change output in another input
1115 2014-12-19 21:47:31 <kanzure> deliberately? or unintentionally ?
1116 2014-12-19 21:47:50 <sipa> deliberately
1117 2014-12-19 21:48:26 <sipa> imagine you have 2 coins, and need to send 3 transactions; the normal model of fund -> lock -> spend -> unlock doesn't work with a batch
1118 2014-12-19 21:48:50 <sipa> but it seems perfectly fine (oh wait, malleability) to do this for multiple transactions at once
1119 2014-12-19 21:48:54 <sipa> never mind
1120 2014-12-19 21:49:20 <kanzure> that's an okay argument for saying "this function should *not* use the created change addresses as inputs in the other transactions in the batch" :)
1121 2014-12-19 21:49:41 <gmaxwell> kanzure: in any case, I think a real batch (e.g. result in a single transaction) is just a lot more interesting, as it can radically reduce the amount of transaction data you need.
1122 2014-12-19 21:50:00 <sipa> well i can imagine not wanting to mix certain transactions
1123 2014-12-19 21:50:02 <kanzure> "result in a single transaction" methinks we might have a different definition of batch
1124 2014-12-19 21:50:07 <gmaxwell> and most of that savings comes from having fewer total signatures (as the fewest signatures a transaction can have is one)
1125 2014-12-19 21:50:23 <sipa> in a perfect system, where there was no address reuse and much better prviacy overall, you'd merge everything you got
1126 2014-12-19 21:50:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: where that happens you probably don't want to mix the walllet.
1127 2014-12-19 21:50:52 <gmaxwell> (also a merged up transaction looks superficially like a coinjoin in any case)
1128 2014-12-19 21:50:53 <sipa> like what if you're paying to two competitors, who each have public static addresses?
1129 2014-12-19 21:50:53 <kanzure> my use case is offline signing of withdrawals from a service
1130 2014-12-19 21:51:09 <kanzure> (without reimplementing coin selection)
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1132 2014-12-19 21:51:22 <gmaxwell> kanzure: great but why are you not batching the withdrawls? (analogous to sendmany)
1133 2014-12-19 21:51:22 <kanzure> (i mean, i could reimplement coin selection, but only if i have to)
1134 2014-12-19 21:52:24 <kanzure> what is your definition of batch here?
1135 2014-12-19 21:53:03 <gmaxwell> logically doing what a sendmany does, if you ignore the offline and having to know upfront who you'll be paying.
1136 2014-12-19 21:53:17 <gmaxwell> It's a preexisting norm in bitcoin that services pay people with sendmanys.
1137 2014-12-19 21:56:09 <kanzure> sipa's answer sounds like a good reason to me for not using a single transaction
1138 2014-12-19 21:57:14 <gmaxwell> It's not.
1139 2014-12-19 21:57:30 <sipa> well it's the result of a broken system
1140 2014-12-19 21:57:44 <gmaxwell> If you're trying to be private, you already failed.. because you'll end up e.g. using coins paid to the same address to sign for each of your seperate transactions already.
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1142 2014-12-19 21:58:19 <sipa> hmm, agree
1143 2014-12-19 21:58:21 <sipa> indeed
1144 2014-12-19 21:58:26 <gmaxwell> (or on prior transactions which spent coins which paid to the same addresses as any of the coins in your new ones)
1145 2014-12-19 21:58:42 <sipa> yeah, you can't prevent linkage
1146 2014-12-19 21:58:46 <sipa> when using one wallet
1147 2014-12-19 21:59:13 <gmaxwell> Already past history from address reuse and co-spending is incredibly deanonymizing unless you assume people are widely performing coinjoins. (in which case, a sendmany also mostly looks like a coinjoin)
1148 2014-12-19 21:59:30 <gmaxwell> You can reduce the leakage, and we do some,, and could do more. But right. Cannot be prevented.
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1150 2014-12-19 22:01:57 <kanzure> okay, sounds like you would have to track which inputs you are using to a degree that would involve lots of work and, likely rejection during review anyway
1151 2014-12-19 22:02:33 <kanzure> e.g., a flag to tell fundmany not to select coins from the same transaction, or even something more aggressive about looking at transaction history, which quickly becomes infeasible, and besides you don't want it to croak on failure even if you have the right funds but "not enough privacy" or w/e
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1153 2014-12-19 22:02:44 <kanzure> okay. thanks.
1154 2014-12-19 22:02:57 <sipa> kanzure: so, solution, if you want this: implement multiwallet
1155 2014-12-19 22:03:15 <kanzure> right, i am trying to decide if i do want this at all
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1157 2014-12-19 22:03:37 <kanzure> specifically my question is "whether or not i feel there is a qualitative difference between a single giant transaction, and a series of transactions that could be linked together by some careful analysis"
1158 2014-12-19 22:03:56 <sipa> the point is that individual tracking requires micromanagement
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1160 2014-12-19 22:04:03 <gmaxwell> There is certantly a postive advantage: the single transaction can be _much_ smaller than the total of many smaller ones.
1161 2014-12-19 22:04:51 <kanzure> well, i was thinking in terms of "privacy benefits of many smaller transactions", and whether or not the "benefit" is greater than the benefit of not implementing my own coin selection or the benefit of not paying for many tiny individual transactions
1162 2014-12-19 22:05:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. 89 bytes per marginal output all seperate vs 32 bytes per marginal output.
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1164 2014-12-19 22:06:52 <gmaxwell> kanzure: the seperate transactions will pretty reliably be linkable if there is any address reuse at all, and somewhat linkable even if not (if jagged coins allow for reliable change following)
1165 2014-12-19 22:08:00 <kanzure> oh right, forward-looking change reuse after-the-fact
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