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53 2014-12-20 01:17:52 <dgenr8> mempool art, 500+ tx all invalidated by a single respend http://i.imgur.com/ZTKAuqz.png
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60 2014-12-20 01:25:57 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, what's that from?
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70 2014-12-20 01:41:04 <dgenr8> my mempool
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76 2014-12-20 01:45:54 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, yeah but what tool visualized that
77 2014-12-20 01:47:20 <dgenr8> ah here it is... https://github.com/weilu/bitcoin-tx-graph-visualizer
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94 2014-12-20 02:13:17 <kanzure> dgenr8: do you see that often?
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96 2014-12-20 02:16:49 <luke-jr_> I wonder if that was a legit respend or not
97 2014-12-20 02:17:38 <dgenr8> kanzure: never before yesterday evening. there were more than a dozen of these things.
98 2014-12-20 02:18:20 <kanzure> so what sort of regular rate of transaction-invalidation do you see in your mempool?
99 2014-12-20 02:18:54 <dgenr8> only 10-20 a day http://respends.thinlink.com
100 2014-12-20 02:20:57 <dgenr8> a few weeks ago there was another pattern. only 50 or so txes, but arranged in a dazzling self-referential mess
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102 2014-12-20 02:24:46 <luke-jr_> dgenr8: that's neat
103 2014-12-20 02:24:50 <kanzure> yes.
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105 2014-12-20 02:25:35 <luke-jr_> what do the colours indicate?
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109 2014-12-20 02:27:43 <dgenr8> in the viz lib? nothing (I think). there are some mods one would like to make, if one had time. like making the channel widths represent amounts
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112 2014-12-20 02:30:41 <dgenr8> and representing vin/vout index, and leaving an unconnected part of the tx to represent fees, and...
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150 2014-12-20 03:38:27 <Keefe> would it be possible for me to check for the existence of a txn in the mempools of a large number of bitcoin nodes, to determine how well it propagated?
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152 2014-12-20 03:39:16 <Keefe> if i could write some script to use a list of nodes from getaddr.bitnodes.io, connect to a bunch of them, and send some sort of request for the txn?
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154 2014-12-20 03:40:29 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, you can connect to them and watch the inv broadcasts
155 2014-12-20 03:40:47 <phantomcircuit> otherwise no
156 2014-12-20 03:41:08 <Keefe> so i can only passively listen for re-broadcasts
157 2014-12-20 03:42:03 <Keefe> do nodes usually periodically re-broadcast all txns in their mempool? or only ones they created?
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159 2014-12-20 03:46:42 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, only when they receive them
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161 2014-12-20 03:47:21 <Keefe> the reason i'm looking into this, is i'm trying to troubleshoot why i seem to be unsuccessful in broadcasting a new transaction to replace (same inputs) one i created almost 3 days ago with 0 fee. i thought surely by now the network would forget about the old txn that'll almost certainly never confirm, since the wallet that created it is no longer broadcasting
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166 2014-12-20 03:54:36 <user7779_> Keefe: you can monitor mempool txs here: http://mempool.info/
167 2014-12-20 03:54:40 <user7779_> scroll down for older txs
168 2014-12-20 03:55:17 <maaku> user7779_: you can monitor *someone else's* mempool transactions there
169 2014-12-20 03:55:28 <user7779_> yes, pardon. should have ben more clear!
170 2014-12-20 03:55:47 <user7779_> we are working on adding a few more nodes to it so it has a better spread
171 2014-12-20 03:57:48 <Keefe> user7779_: nice, thx. scary though that there are txns from months ago still stuck in limbo, wasting space in mempools
172 2014-12-20 03:58:09 <user7779_> yep!
173 2014-12-20 03:59:06 <Keefe> i hope that's only due to the sender and/or receiver continuing to rebroadcast, and not just the network echoing the txns around and around
174 2014-12-20 03:59:35 <user7779_> they don't "echo" them around. they get put in the mempool and they sit there unless they get kicked out or the node gets turned off
175 2014-12-20 04:00:13 <Keefe> or pruned after some time, right?
176 2014-12-20 04:00:51 <user7779_> i think you have the terminology a bit confused
177 2014-12-20 04:01:21 <user7779_> pruning has nothing to do with the mempool. pruning is usually used in regards to the blockchain itself
178 2014-12-20 04:01:31 <user7779_> removing data from it that a node might not need to be operational
179 2014-12-20 04:01:34 <Keefe> ya, my bad choice of word
180 2014-12-20 04:02:11 <user7779_> im not sure if there is a time limit wherein a tx will be removed from the mempool. a node can choose not to accept a tx into its mempool, that is for sure
181 2014-12-20 04:02:29 <Keefe> so to be clear, you're saying a txn remains in a node's mempool indefinitely until restart or inclusion in a block. ouch
182 2014-12-20 04:02:45 <maaku> Keefe: what else should happen?
183 2014-12-20 04:02:50 <user7779_> yes, unless someone here says otherwise. that is my understanding
184 2014-12-20 04:03:02 <Keefe> maaku: drop after a couple days?
185 2014-12-20 04:03:10 <maaku> Keefe: why?
186 2014-12-20 04:03:13 <user7779_> Keefe: no, that is not the behavior
187 2014-12-20 04:03:38 <gmaxwell> Keefe: The mempool is naturally limited by fees/priority.
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189 2014-12-20 04:03:51 <Keefe> if no miner processes a txn for days, why waste memory if the sender/receiver don't care to keep it alive?
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191 2014-12-20 04:04:09 <gmaxwell> Keefe: expiry at some threshold may makes sense, but it would create double spending races and make it harder for lower priority txn to ever get mined.
192 2014-12-20 04:04:48 <gmaxwell> Keefe: perhaps "mem" is causing confusion. There isn't any particular reason the mempool needs to be in ram.
193 2014-12-20 04:04:57 <Keefe> ok
194 2014-12-20 04:05:10 <user7779_> gmaxwell: then why is it?
195 2014-12-20 04:05:20 <user7779_> kept in RAM
196 2014-12-20 04:05:46 <maaku> user7779_: because that's how it is currently implmented
197 2014-12-20 04:06:03 <user7779_> okay, so no constrains beyond that. interesting!
198 2014-12-20 04:06:09 <gmaxwell> user7779_: because it's small enough that it doesn't matter if its not, and doing otherwise is more complex. I would expect it would be backed by disk eventually. (I suppose today it is somewhat in that large swaths of it will happily get swapped out)
199 2014-12-20 04:06:34 <user7779_> perhaps if there is a DOS against the mempool it will become a bigger problem sooner than we think
200 2014-12-20 04:06:36 <user7779_> hopefully not!
201 2014-12-20 04:06:40 <Keefe> by "limited by fees/priority" do you mean there's usually a fixed size of the mempool so lowest fee/priority txns can fall off if there's a bunch of new unconfirmed txns?
202 2014-12-20 04:07:19 <gmaxwell> Keefe: no but transactions below a certian threshold won't enter the mempool (and/or are very narrowly rate limited)
203 2014-12-20 04:07:38 <gmaxwell> and the ability to create fees/priority is limited by the existing utxo set.
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205 2014-12-20 04:13:53 <Keefe> am i correct that most nodes/miners do not yet implement replace-by-fee or child-pays-for-parent?
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207 2014-12-20 04:14:47 <gmaxwell> Keefe: correct. (not sure why you say 'yet' as if its foregone tha these are desirable things!)
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217 2014-12-20 04:32:28 <Keefe> gmaxwell: i know my perspective is currently narrow, searching for hope of recovering the btc i sent without fee. either of those "features" would solve my problem
218 2014-12-20 04:32:51 <Keefe> (between my own two wallets btw)
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225 2014-12-20 04:47:25 <gmaxwell> Keefe: it'll either go through or you can just conflict it. no need for hope, just logic. nodes don't mempool things that are too outragiously low, and priority goes up over time, nodes get restarted.
226 2014-12-20 04:47:45 <gmaxwell> I've had no difficulty in the past conflicting .stuck transactions.
227 2014-12-20 04:48:18 <gmaxwell> Just stop reannouncing the original, wait a few hours, write a conflicting one.. broadcast that.. maybe help it along using the eligius push interface.
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237 2014-12-20 04:58:29 <Keefe> gmaxwell: the original free txn was sent from a bci wallet a few days ago, bci dropped it after about 50 hours. that was about 20 hours ago. about 16 hours ago, i created a new txn from the bci wallet with the same inputs and with a proper fee. that's what i'm struggling to get to confirm
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239 2014-12-20 04:59:28 <Keefe> i've tried pushing the new txn to blockr.io, and one or two others, and from one of my own qt nodes. no luck yet. i thought eligius stopped providing a web push interface...
240 2014-12-20 05:00:50 <Keefe> a few other blockchain explorers still see the old free txn and not the new one
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244 2014-12-20 05:08:11 <phantomcircuit> Keefe, connect to all the nodes you can connect to and push the tx to them
245 2014-12-20 05:08:12 <phantomcircuit> :P
246 2014-12-20 05:08:58 <Keefe> ok, will try :)
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248 2014-12-20 05:11:30 <wizkid057> Keefe: gmaxwell: I've temporarily disabled the web push interface on Eligius since some spam was getting through and I haven't had the time to fix it yet :(
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252 2014-12-20 05:21:03 <Luke-Jr> (but wizkid057 and I can manually submit things)
253 2014-12-20 05:21:06 <Keefe> my problem will be solved soon, thanks to wizkid057 :)
254 2014-12-20 05:21:48 <Luke-Jr> also, Eligius has had CPFP for like a year or two now
255 2014-12-20 05:22:05 <Keefe> oh, nice to know
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257 2014-12-20 05:22:36 <Luke-Jr> (though it's hard to use since you need to get the tx to the mempool)
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260 2014-12-20 05:26:42 <Keefe> i think that would've been no (technical) problem in my case. eligius already had the free txn in its mempool, and i assume a child txn shouldn't have a problem propagating. but actually in my case, making a child txn would involve unsealing a priv key, so i hoped to avoid that
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279 2014-12-20 06:17:11 <Luke-Jr> Keefe: i c, makes sense
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411 2014-12-20 09:30:49 <maaku> gmaxwell: what's the protocol for reserving bip ranges
412 2014-12-20 09:30:52 <maaku> ?
413 2014-12-20 09:31:59 <phantomcircuit> maaku, ask for one
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415 2014-12-20 09:37:10 <maaku> ok, I have a range of six BIPs that i'm working on, on the topics of (1) Merklized prefix trees, (2) data commitment and proof structure, (3) improved merged, mining, (4) block header back-link commitments, (5) UTXO commitments, and (6) TXO commitments
416 2014-12-20 09:37:48 <maaku> still drafting the text and reference implementations, but allocating a contiguous sequence of BIP numbers would be nice
417 2014-12-20 09:39:57 <maaku> actually could be 7 since (2) is two topics (unvalidated data commitments, and the generic serialization format for commitments proofs)
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431 2014-12-20 10:05:55 <maaku> grrr CPartialMerkleTree could be much more efficient
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435 2014-12-20 10:09:23 <gmaxwell> I've had bad expirences with ranges and reservations. There is no great advantage in having them contigious, really, I'd rather take them as they come.
436 2014-12-20 10:10:00 <maaku> ok
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551 2014-12-20 13:25:33 <aschildbach> Are there any statistics about how many transactions follow the BIP62 rules these days? Specifically the "DER encoding" and "low S value" rules?
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553 2014-12-20 13:26:42 <sipa> i don't know; not many, i expect
554 2014-12-20 13:26:54 <sipa> bitcoinj/bitcoin core?
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557 2014-12-20 13:30:24 <aschildbach> sipa: On the blockchain.
558 2014-12-20 13:30:41 <aschildbach> sipa: Or rather in the P2P network.
559 2014-12-20 13:30:50 <aschildbach> Doesn't matter which client
560 2014-12-20 13:31:01 <sipa> sure; i mean i don't have numbers, but i expect only core/bitcoinj are creating low S value signatures
561 2014-12-20 13:31:09 <sipa> DER encoding... everyoe
562 2014-12-20 13:31:40 <sipa> not following DER has been non-standard since 0.8, and afaik there are exactly 0 transactions being created anymore that don't follow that rule
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567 2014-12-20 13:43:36 <aschildbach> Ok thanks
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581 2014-12-20 14:11:03 <jonasschnelli> kanzure, gmaxwell: fundrawtransaction: what would the optional limit parameter do?
582 2014-12-20 14:13:19 <kanzure> 13:25 < gmaxwell> hm. wouldn't it be nice if you could say "createraw [] {dest:10} ; fundraw hex limit=5; signraw anyonecanpay" then pass it to someone wlse who can fundraw; signraw; sendraw?
583 2014-12-20 14:13:45 <sipa> jonasschnelli: not funny fund
584 2014-12-20 14:13:46 <sipa> *fully
585 2014-12-20 14:13:58 <kanzure> funny fund, where you pay with clown points
586 2014-12-20 14:14:04 <sipa> but only fund up to a certain amount, allowing others to add funds
587 2014-12-20 14:14:13 <lewellyn> don't give the altcoins any ideas, kanzure :P
588 2014-12-20 14:14:27 <sipa> cloiwn
589 2014-12-20 14:14:40 <jonasschnelli> sipa and not adding a change vout?
590 2014-12-20 14:16:12 <kanzure> jonasschnelli: however, my idea for fundmany was refuted here http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2014/12/19#l1419025192
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592 2014-12-20 14:16:59 <jonasschnelli> kanzure: yes i saw that. But the LIMIT param still makes sense to me
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595 2014-12-20 14:18:50 <jonasschnelli> sipa: okay. i think i got it. Fill up the transaction with coins till we are > given LIMIT, add change vout that we reach = LIMIT? Who pays the fee?
596 2014-12-20 14:19:13 <sipa> jonasschnelli: for gmaxwell's example, you can't add change
597 2014-12-20 14:19:36 <sipa> as that will invalidate the signatures
598 2014-12-20 14:20:53 <jonasschnelli> but lets assume, bob has only one 50BTC coin left unspent. He not fundraw a 30BTC tx with LIMIT 15BTC, how does he get his change (30-15)?
599 2014-12-20 14:21:04 <jonasschnelli> He not = He now
600 2014-12-20 14:21:36 <sipa> you can create a transaction to break up the coin beforehand :)
601 2014-12-20 14:21:53 <jonasschnelli> yes. i thought about that... :)
602 2014-12-20 14:21:54 <sipa> not a serious suggestion, but i don't see a good way to deal with it otherwise
603 2014-12-20 14:22:45 <kanzure> malleability will bust that
604 2014-12-20 14:23:05 <sipa> you can do it manually too, and wait for it to confirm beforehand
605 2014-12-20 14:23:15 <kanzure> and also, the docstrings around fundrawtransaction would have to scream "this may make an initial transaction with a separate txid"
606 2014-12-20 14:23:34 <sipa> yeah, not suggesting that fundrawtransaction itself does it
607 2014-12-20 14:23:56 <sipa> but if not, you're already manually choosing coins to add anyway
608 2014-12-20 14:24:05 <sipa> so fundrawtransaction seems meaningless
609 2014-12-20 14:24:36 <kanzure> actually that's pretty funny. right, use sendtoaddress to send to your own address first, then specifically use that vout :).
610 2014-12-20 14:24:47 <jonasschnelli> LIMIT makes only sense if there would be a ways to break coins before the fund takes place...
611 2014-12-20 14:25:51 <jonasschnelli> and what about the txfee? Last user who add funds to the tx need to pay the fees?
612 2014-12-20 14:27:37 <Belxjander> jonasschnelli spread the fee amongst everyone?
613 2014-12-20 14:28:40 <jonasschnelli> Belxjander: how? IMO the fee can only be calculated after the last vin has added.
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1108 2014-12-20 20:16:38 <chmod755> Bitcoin needs to dissolve Cody Wilson
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1113 2014-12-20 20:41:27 <Luke-Jr> chmod755: please keep off-topic not in here
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1115 2014-12-20 20:44:28 <chmod755> :X
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1119 2014-12-20 20:50:44 <jcrubino> is there a server for dns lookup (nslookup) of testnet peers?
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1121 2014-12-20 20:53:03 <sipa> yes
1122 2014-12-20 20:53:07 <chmod755> jcrubino, testnet-seed.bitcoin.petertodd.org
1123 2014-12-20 20:53:15 <jcrubino> thanks
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1133 2014-12-20 21:10:09 <BlueMatt_> well, I submitted this as a test just to see if it would work....but what do people think about this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5515
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1137 2014-12-20 21:11:02 <BlueMatt> it essentially asserts that we dont have deadlocks assuming: (a) no locking-conditions are based on data other than the current set of locked locks and (b) if we do a TRY_LOCK, and it fails, we will immediately bail out and just skip that section of code
1138 2014-12-20 21:11:07 <BlueMatt> both of which are pretty reasonable assumptions
1139 2014-12-20 21:11:27 <BlueMatt> considering DEBUG_LOCKORDER is essentially only a travis-thing I dont really mind if its not entirely stable?
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1141 2014-12-20 21:13:26 <BlueMatt> I have another commit which will not assert if you try_lock on a lock which is not a part of the lock mis-order, but that also doesnt seem to be needed and may be more accepting of real deadlocks
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1151 2014-12-20 21:34:24 <jonasschnelli> BlueMatt regarding your idea for XORed ip DNS, how you would deploy this? How you would support old versions? New DNS servers for a new bitcoind version?
1152 2014-12-20 21:35:01 <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: yea, just a new subdomain
1153 2014-12-20 21:35:09 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: just a new domain name for the new form, eventually retire the old ones.
1154 2014-12-20 21:35:12 <BlueMatt> also, not my idea
1155 2014-12-20 21:35:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: forgodssake I sure as heck don't want credit for it. :P
1156 2014-12-20 21:36:02 <jonasschnelli> the xored ip is a valid ip? So it could be possible that the xored ip also serves malware?
1157 2014-12-20 21:36:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nor do I
1158 2014-12-20 21:36:32 <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: yes, but if you're clever, you should be able to pick an xor mask to reduce the risk
1159 2014-12-20 21:36:52 <BlueMatt> also, it becomes $(RANDOM_IP_SERVES_MALWARE), not $(IP_WITH_ACTIVE_SERVERS_SERVS_MALWARE)
1160 2014-12-20 21:37:00 <BlueMatt> which is much better
1161 2014-12-20 21:37:13 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: perhaps, but pretty unlikely.
1162 2014-12-20 21:37:56 <gmaxwell> the right mask choice could get a lot of the routable internet into multicast space... though we might want to make sure that no common recursive resolvers are blocking results like that.
1163 2014-12-20 21:38:11 <gmaxwell> probably should have some effort to avoid returning private blocks, for example.
1164 2014-12-20 21:40:15 <jonasschnelli> it could be more complex then just a xor mask
1165 2014-12-20 21:42:26 <BlueMatt> could be, but.....
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1167 2014-12-20 21:44:39 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: sure, could be whitned by going lsb to msb and xoring each new bit with some arbritary function on the prior bits.
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1169 2014-12-20 21:45:56 <gmaxwell> to reduce blocking of weird address space, the most significant byte could be left alone.
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1172 2014-12-20 21:48:21 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell sound good. And the quasi standard software for bitcoin dnsseed is sipas thing? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder
1173 2014-12-20 21:49:25 <Aquent> do we have any estimate of when sidechains might be implemented? Like if reddit wanted to adopt sidechains to issue reddit notes, how long would you estimate this would take?
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1176 2014-12-20 21:58:45 <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: no, there are like 4 seed scanners/seed implementations at this point....
1177 2014-12-20 21:58:58 <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: if you're looking to implement, just do it in bitcoin core, the rest will follow
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1188 2014-12-20 22:23:47 <aschildbach> jonasschnelli: whatever you do, please do not implement another DNS server. Rather generate zonefiles for e.g. bind.
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1204 2014-12-20 22:40:11 <wbic16> What's the most common platform used for bitcoin core dev (which distro)?
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1209 2014-12-20 22:50:33 <wbic16> /ping, anyone watching irc today? :)
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1212 2014-12-20 22:57:55 <gmaxwell> wbic16: Who knows?
1213 2014-12-20 22:58:10 <gmaxwell> wbic16: in terms of running hosts, I wouldn't be surprised if it were windows. :)
1214 2014-12-20 22:58:17 <wbic16> no, I meant for dev
1215 2014-12-20 22:59:31 <gmaxwell> dunno, all work about equally well, on some you have to kick openssl's ecc support. I use fedora and gentoo, several people use ubuntu, at least one person uses arch.
1216 2014-12-20 22:59:47 <wbic16> gotcha
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