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3 2014-12-22 00:02:04 <wallet42> hi what is the earliest estimate OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY could be live?
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51 2014-12-22 01:04:18 <BlueMatt> wallet42: in exactly 11 minutes/hours/days/weeks/months/years
52 2014-12-22 01:04:25 <BlueMatt> pick a unit, but it must be 11!
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55 2014-12-22 01:08:15 <wallet42> im going with swatch internet time
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57 2014-12-22 01:13:15 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: tonal days
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63 2014-12-22 01:34:55 <proserpine-> just to be SURE, a bitcoin address based from the same uncompressed and compressed public key DIFFERS, right?
64 2014-12-22 01:35:10 <BlueMatt> yes
65 2014-12-22 01:35:20 <proserpine-> k - ty
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70 2014-12-22 01:47:02 <Luke-Jr> proserpine-: but it is still address reuse, note
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72 2014-12-22 01:48:43 <proserpine-> Luke-Jr: yea because the other address can be constructed looking at the pubkey from scriptsig?
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74 2014-12-22 01:48:57 <Luke-Jr> right
75 2014-12-22 01:49:03 <Luke-Jr> the problem is really key reuse, not address reuse
76 2014-12-22 01:49:11 <proserpine-> yup
77 2014-12-22 01:49:29 * Luke-Jr ponders if this ought to be explained on the wiki
78 2014-12-22 01:49:46 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: happen to know how Linux kernel modules are implemented?
79 2014-12-22 01:50:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that sounds like a very vague question
80 2014-12-22 01:51:02 <sipa> vague/broad
81 2014-12-22 01:51:58 <proserpine-> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/lkmpg/2.6/html/ ?
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83 2014-12-22 01:53:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, I have no clue what specifically I need to know there :/
84 2014-12-22 01:53:26 <Luke-Jr> basically I'm interested in how kernel modules get loaded, are they patched or whatever
85 2014-12-22 01:53:37 <Luke-Jr> trying to RE bitmain's antminer blobs ..
86 2014-12-22 01:54:15 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, they're loaded very similarly to .so's
87 2014-12-22 01:54:23 <BlueMatt> you have an init and exit function, if you want
88 2014-12-22 01:54:36 <BlueMatt> otherwise you have just new functions
89 2014-12-22 01:54:55 <BlueMatt> (and ofc there are apis to register handling a device)
90 2014-12-22 01:54:56 <Luke-Jr> I can't say I really know how .so's are loaded either.
91 2014-12-22 01:55:11 <Luke-Jr> this blob seems to have a function at address 0, that does nothing but return -25
92 2014-12-22 01:55:12 <BlueMatt> anyway, broad question, not particularly ot :p
93 2014-12-22 01:55:24 <BlueMatt> then probably ignore that function :p
94 2014-12-22 01:55:24 <Luke-Jr> but it's in a place I would expect some kind of hardware communication
95 2014-12-22 01:55:43 <sipa> well the big question is whether it uses relocation, or position-independent code, i guess
96 2014-12-22 01:55:52 <BlueMatt> true
97 2014-12-22 01:56:05 <sipa> (and depending on the platform, a .so can use both afaik)
98 2014-12-22 01:56:49 <Luke-Jr> I found it strange to have addresses with code at 0
99 2014-12-22 01:56:58 <Luke-Jr> so it must have something like that
100 2014-12-22 01:57:41 <Luke-Jr> really tempting to just drop antminer S1 from the "future supported" list and apologise to everyone who was waiting for it
101 2014-12-22 01:57:50 <Luke-Jr> until the day when/if bitmain cares to comply with GPL
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117 2014-12-22 02:30:05 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, yes
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119 2014-12-22 02:31:23 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I've hand-decompiled one of the functions to http://codepad.org/nTJQgDfW - what I find confusing is the code at address 0, which is a mere return -25 in objdump
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127 2014-12-22 02:44:35 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, sounds like code that is runtime patched to not do that
128 2014-12-22 02:44:53 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, with the code being compiled into default-safe mode
129 2014-12-22 02:45:04 <jgarzik> which fails, because (presumably) runtime fixups have not been applied
130 2014-12-22 02:45:22 <jgarzik> part of the kmod loading protocol has not been executed somewhere
131 2014-12-22 02:45:45 <jgarzik> the kernel rewrites its own code in various places
132 2014-12-22 02:45:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: how do I figure out what the end result of that is?
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134 2014-12-22 02:46:07 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, load a module and look a /dev/mem?
135 2014-12-22 02:46:11 <Luke-Jr> hmm
136 2014-12-22 02:46:22 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, an on-disk representation != in-memory representation
137 2014-12-22 02:46:27 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, just like userspace programs
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139 2014-12-22 02:46:37 <Luke-Jr> hmm
140 2014-12-22 02:46:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: usually the userspace programs are possible to follow from objdump though! :P
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143 2014-12-22 02:49:13 * Luke-Jr ponders how he'll find it in /dev/mem
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149 2014-12-22 03:01:11 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: any way to get it as-in-/dev/mem with debug symbols?
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155 2014-12-22 03:09:17 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, "yes" but my memory gets rusty at this point... :/ the kernel itself needs to dump debug info, so it has that internally.
156 2014-12-22 03:09:30 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, my preferred debugger for that reason was always a custom kernel w/ added printk's
157 2014-12-22 03:10:16 <Luke-Jr> which sadly doesn't work for blobs really
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164 2014-12-22 03:37:34 * Luke-Jr ponders why objdump is giving him different disassembly for the same bytes :x
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169 2014-12-22 03:56:46 <Luke-Jr> hmm
170 2014-12-22 03:56:50 <Luke-Jr> in /dev/mem 11303d8: 0c000000 jal 0x0
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257 2014-12-22 06:02:50 <midnightmagic> that's pretty cool; memory profile is much less as of HEAD of about Dec 12. RSS is only at 350MB for mainnet and 100MB for testnet right now.
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260 2014-12-22 06:05:59 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: right, you can decrease it further by lowering the database cache, we increased it at the same time. (As we'd saved so much elsewhere...)
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262 2014-12-22 06:07:10 <midnightmagic> very nice, it means i can run it better on small hardware. hooray for extending the useful lifetime of machines I've slaved over for a decade :)
263 2014-12-22 06:07:13 <gmaxwell> a minimum memory usage run would be something like -dbcache=4 -par=1 -rpcthreads=1
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265 2014-12-22 06:08:08 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: more interesting is keeping it usable in VPSes (which tend to be memory starved), and giving a little more breathing room in DOS attacks that cause higher memory usage.
266 2014-12-22 06:08:14 <brand0> midnightmagic, you were having problems running regtestnet?
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272 2014-12-22 06:16:44 <midnightmagic> brand0: I was not. The machine in question has an unusual amount of RAM onboard (2GB) so I'm a ways off from obsolescence for it.
273 2014-12-22 06:17:42 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: was it libsec you were curious about on big-endian?
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279 2014-12-22 06:27:34 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: all tested on BE now, too slow. You can, however, start testing bitcoind on BE if your BE host has enough horsepower and space!
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281 2014-12-22 06:41:03 <midnightmagic> :-P
282 2014-12-22 06:41:12 <midnightmagic> you didn't tell me it was more than curiosity :)
283 2014-12-22 06:42:09 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it wasn't, but I cleaned and the PPC hosts were in the way so I hooked them up.
284 2014-12-22 06:42:25 <midnightmagic> what's the PPC platform you're on?
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286 2014-12-22 06:42:44 <midnightmagic> got some mac or something or do you have something more interesting
287 2014-12-22 06:43:04 <gmaxwell> xserv G5, old dual processor rackmount macs. (I have a pair, one with debian, one with a really old copy of OSX)
288 2014-12-22 06:43:13 <midnightmagic> ah neat.
289 2014-12-22 06:43:33 <gmaxwell> 8gb ram too. Actually not bad systems for the $50/ea or whatever I paid for them. Still slow, but they're old.
290 2014-12-22 06:43:40 <midnightmagic> too bad cell went the way of the dodo, i would've liked to have one of those coprocessor boards at a decent price
291 2014-12-22 06:43:57 <midnightmagic> I got my quad-core G5 ppc mac for $20 :0D
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293 2014-12-22 06:44:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, I used to have a PS3 with linux on it, but then I played portal 2 and it upgraded the system and made linux available. (I'd even bought the darn thing for porting Opus to CELL, which I'd done)
294 2014-12-22 06:46:02 <midnightmagic> there were machines based around cell but when I looked into the prices they were exhorbitant!
295 2014-12-22 06:46:13 <midnightmagic> completely absurd pricing..
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308 2014-12-22 07:30:33 <maaku> I still have a japanese PS3 in storage with the firmware that was root exploitable
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310 2014-12-22 07:31:01 <maaku> intended to do some cell + nvidia gpu hacking, but of course never had the time :(
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313 2014-12-22 07:33:53 <proserpine-> wait, is there BE support for bitcoin??
314 2014-12-22 07:34:37 <proserpine-> bitcoind*
315 2014-12-22 07:36:25 <gmaxwell> proserpine-: not merged yet, PR 5510, seems to work so far.
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317 2014-12-22 07:37:54 <proserpine-> heh coolio, i will test
318 2014-12-22 07:38:48 <gmaxwell> (I have a PPC host synced up to tip with master)
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340 2014-12-22 08:21:42 <wumpus> well it'd be nice if it was possible to run bitcoind on say, off-the-shelf NAS boxes, or even on openwrt routers, although that's still a long way away with regard to both verification performance and memory usage
341 2014-12-22 08:23:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well, you can now more or less reasonably run it on a $35 board (odroid c1).
342 2014-12-22 08:24:02 <wumpus> but big endian support is a necessary step for that as a lot use mips
343 2014-12-22 08:24:09 <gmaxwell> which does get us into the realm of reasonably having a full node inside miner hardware, since thats the price point of their linux running microcontroolers.
344 2014-12-22 08:24:12 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yep
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351 2014-12-22 08:30:14 <wumpus> that's indeed a very nice board for the price
352 2014-12-22 08:30:45 <Belxjander> gmaxwell / wumpus : Raspberry Pi with an External USB connected HDD enclosure (with HDD populated for storage) works as a base cheap device for at least blockchain recording...
353 2014-12-22 08:31:02 <Belxjander> as I have that setup here using a very cheap RPi and a spare SATA HDD doing little else
354 2014-12-22 08:31:56 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: rpi is really pretty underpowered. I don't consider bitcoind as working on an rpi. though it does kinda limp along sorta.
355 2014-12-22 08:32:11 moa has joined
356 2014-12-22 08:32:12 <wumpus> rpi is *weak* though, though I'm happy you've got it to work
357 2014-12-22 08:32:16 <Belxjander> I'm also looking at what I can do for running bitcoin-core on a BE PPC setup as well
358 2014-12-22 08:32:35 <Belxjander> wumpus: I only wanted to set it up for blockchain recording at this point
359 2014-12-22 08:32:49 <Belxjander> get a version of the blockchain "on disk" and then work from there for the AOS build
360 2014-12-22 08:32:53 <wumpus> it isn't that cheap compared to say the board gmaxwell mentions, and just a lot of slower, it's just that tons of them have been produced
361 2014-12-22 08:33:04 <wumpus> Belxjander: sure
362 2014-12-22 08:33:26 <gmaxwell> rpi is the same price as odroid c1, $35, IIRC.
363 2014-12-22 08:33:48 Lightsword has joined
364 2014-12-22 08:34:06 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: you've been around for a dog's age; does this mean you're also recording fork events? how far back does your blockchain database go?
365 2014-12-22 08:34:36 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: also, are you recording testnet and how long have you been doing that?
366 2014-12-22 08:35:45 <Belxjander> midnightmagic: only recently got the RPi to do the build as I rebuilt it as an ArchLinux installation with the SATA HDD paired with it as a /home directory
367 2014-12-22 08:36:07 <Belxjander> I started with the jgarzik torrent data and then had it record additional blocks from there
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373 2014-12-22 08:42:28 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: fwiw, I did save a lot of old (2011) stale blocks: http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/staleblocks.txz (16 MB)
374 2014-12-22 08:43:26 cbeams has joined
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376 2014-12-22 08:44:27 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: thank you
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378 2014-12-22 08:44:46 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: would you mind posting a sha2 of that file in here?
379 2014-12-22 08:44:51 <midnightmagic> .. by any chance
380 2014-12-22 08:44:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: someone should probably commit to a hash of that file ASAP to prove that they existed as of now at least.
381 2014-12-22 08:45:08 <midnightmagic> :)
382 2014-12-22 08:45:11 <Luke-Jr> 4b2fe99115e8d3ad0956a9dd76edca8a365551d6a7c5bb0b2adbed0364e53ed0 staleblocks.txz
383 2014-12-22 08:45:13 <gmaxwell> I probably have an old disk with a bunch of upto 2012 orphans.
384 2014-12-22 08:45:30 <Luke-Jr> note that I did that on my webserver, so if it turns out to be compromised for any reason, the hash is worthless
385 2014-12-22 08:46:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what does it matter when they existed?
386 2014-12-22 08:46:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: because right now I can create a kazillion old forks pretending to do all kinds of psycho stuff.
387 2014-12-22 08:46:30 <midnightmagic> should be showing up in namecoin by the time the next block shows up
388 2014-12-22 08:46:37 <gmaxwell> E.g. making it look like people knew about recently discovered vulnerabilties long ago, et.c
389 2014-12-22 08:47:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: timestamping these doesn't say anything about the validity of others
390 2014-12-22 08:47:06 GAit has joined
391 2014-12-22 08:48:14 <gmaxwell> no but what it does say is that if you made them up, it was before now. had we done this back when diff 100k was no so totally trivial it would have been a bit of evidence that they weren't fake.
392 2014-12-22 08:49:09 <Luke-Jr> sure, I just don't see the practical value in proving that :p
393 2014-12-22 08:49:12 <midnightmagic> holy moly fast torified download batman
394 2014-12-22 08:49:27 Application has joined
395 2014-12-22 08:50:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well someone would like to look at historic blocks and, you know, know that they're actually historic.
396 2014-12-22 08:50:26 gdm85 has joined
397 2014-12-22 08:50:59 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: hey does this mean we're going to build a bunch of crazy blocks to freak people out in 50 years when the crazy people rediscover it and don't think to check the logs of this channel?
398 2014-12-22 08:51:03 <midnightmagic> :-D
399 2014-12-22 08:51:28 <midnightmagic> let's fuel some distant future conspiracy theories. surely they'll still be around then.
400 2014-12-22 08:51:54 <midnightmagic> 4b2fe99115e8d3ad0956a9dd76edca8a365551d6a7c5bb0b2adbed0364e53ed0 staleblocks.txz
401 2014-12-22 08:52:29 <Luke-Jr> when/if someone starts a proper timestamping service, someone should timestamp the daily log here :P
402 2014-12-22 08:52:58 <midnightmagic> and if someone does, don't ever tell anyone you're doing it unless you want to (potentially) answer subpoenas until the end of time
403 2014-12-22 08:53:39 DigiByteDev has joined
404 2014-12-22 08:53:52 <midnightmagic> aw man I was gyp'd, I don't think this is a quad-core g5 at all. Bah. Worst $20 ever spent.
405 2014-12-22 08:54:04 <wumpus> midnightmagic: ?
406 2014-12-22 08:54:25 <midnightmagic> wumpus: the machine I promised I'd be installing netbsd on so I could help test some of the libsec and big-endian diffs.
407 2014-12-22 08:54:31 <wumpus> midnightmagic: they send you a fake device?
408 2014-12-22 08:54:58 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: sometimes people on ebay (for example) mismark things because they identify them by finding a device that _looks_ just like them.
409 2014-12-22 08:54:59 <midnightmagic> wumpus: no, my (former) coworker clearly got a crappier machine than he said he did.
410 2014-12-22 08:55:19 <midnightmagic> no it was old stock from (former) workplace that we fought over and drew straws over for spare parts.
411 2014-12-22 08:55:33 <wumpus> I did know about chinese counterfeit USB sticks and harddisks, but ARM boards
412 2014-12-22 08:55:35 <wumpus> oh :)
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417 2014-12-22 09:00:24 <jonasschnelli> was there already a discussion about test coverage history? Tools like coveralls.io?
418 2014-12-22 09:02:06 <Luke-Jr> we used to have something in pulltester for it, but I think it got disabled :/
419 2014-12-22 09:03:01 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: we had a thing in pull tester that would whine when your commits decreased coverage, but it was too sensitive (in particular the randomized tests caused false positives) and it got disabled.
420 2014-12-22 09:03:53 <gmaxwell> If it doesn't do branch coverage testing like LCOV then I think it's not really that interesting.
421 2014-12-22 09:04:11 <jonasschnelli> hmm... maybe it makes sense to use coveralls.io? Sample here: https://coveralls.io/r/cainus/node-coveralls?branch=master
422 2014-12-22 09:04:26 <Luke-Jr> I tried to figure coveralls out for BFGMiner a while ago, and gave up for some reason
423 2014-12-22 09:04:26 HANTI is now known as hanti
424 2014-12-22 09:04:36 <Luke-Jr> not that BFGMiner has lots of tests..
425 2014-12-22 09:04:57 <jonasschnelli> i assume it's pretty seamless with traviss
426 2014-12-22 09:05:20 <Luke-Jr> it wasn't simply a matter of turning it on, at least
427 2014-12-22 09:05:23 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
428 2014-12-22 09:05:44 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: seems to only do line coverage, which is not hugely informative. At least where we actually care we do want to see that e.g. both success and failure cases have been tested.
429 2014-12-22 09:07:55 <jonasschnelli> tracking the coverage on codeline-basis looks also informative for me... but yes. it's not everything.
430 2014-12-22 09:08:51 yrashk__ is now known as yrashk
431 2014-12-22 09:08:54 <jonasschnelli> i think including coveralls.io in travis.ml would be pretty easy...
432 2014-12-22 09:09:13 <Luke-Jr> IMO anything is better than nothing.
433 2014-12-22 09:09:23 DigiByteDev has quit (Quit: DigiByteDev)
434 2014-12-22 09:09:31 * gmaxwell sigh well just one more excuse for a half assed thing that we'll not bother making right.
435 2014-12-22 09:09:45 <Luke-Jr> I mean, ideally, we'd have only free software for our infrastructure, but this is still obviously better than waiting for a free solution to pop up
436 2014-12-22 09:09:46 <gmaxwell> Like our builder that can no longer give windows binaries for people to try.
437 2014-12-22 09:09:47 <Belxjander> would it be plausible to iterate all the blocks out as JSON text into individual files by numeric index from the initial block?
438 2014-12-22 09:10:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we _had_ a free solution, it's just that our tests sometimes honestly had lower coverage and the thing we setup whined.
439 2014-12-22 09:10:32 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: its certantly plausable, would waste a ton of space.
440 2014-12-22 09:10:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: which I assume would still be the case now, though presumably we've tightened up the coverage a little bit.
441 2014-12-22 09:10:58 <wumpus> uploading binaries from the test system would still be possible, it's just that it creates a potential security issue
442 2014-12-22 09:11:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: a free solution that interferes with Bitcoin development is sadly inferior to a non-free solution that works reliably
443 2014-12-22 09:11:58 <wumpus> which serving binaries from random pull requests does in the first place, of course, but they'd be effectively unauthenticated and be able to overwrite binaries of other pulls as well
444 2014-12-22 09:11:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the issue was not in the test tool, the issue was in our tests. (well not really 'issue' that some of the tests are randomized is intentional, since it slightly increases coverage for a given amount of cpu.. since we only need one failure to know something is wrong)
445 2014-12-22 09:12:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the issue IMO was that pulltester often just fell apart entirely and complained about everything for no reason
446 2014-12-22 09:12:28 <Luke-Jr> bigger issue*
447 2014-12-22 09:12:31 <jonasschnelli> test coverage per code line would probably help, drive people to increase amount of unit tests?
448 2014-12-22 09:12:34 <lewellyn> speaking of free solutions, i have a list of list providers to finish going through :P
449 2014-12-22 09:12:35 <wumpus> that's a serious issue and the reason I've been holding that back, I don't want our domain to start serving malware
450 2014-12-22 09:13:09 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
451 2014-12-22 09:13:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: domains are cheap. setup bitcoin-malware.org?\
452 2014-12-22 09:13:18 <gmaxwell> hah
453 2014-12-22 09:13:27 <lewellyn> make it auto-download bitcoin core
454 2014-12-22 09:13:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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456 2014-12-22 09:13:51 <gmaxwell> "Sure, someone just posted a fix for that, you can test it at https://bitcoin-malware.com/builds/20150121/..."
457 2014-12-22 09:13:58 <wumpus> :-)
458 2014-12-22 09:14:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that makes me like it even better
459 2014-12-22 09:14:25 <wumpus> I'm really afraid of that and it's one more thing that needs to be monitored
460 2014-12-22 09:14:43 <lewellyn> i prefer a page which explains in detail that bitcoin isn't malware and then does a redirect to the appropriate installer for the user agent, after like 7 seconds. :D
461 2014-12-22 09:14:46 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-builds-that-will-steal-your-money.net
462 2014-12-22 09:14:48 <wumpus> I have enough things to babysit already
463 2014-12-22 09:15:10 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: tests that only increase line coverage and don't actually exaust the interesting cases are bad because they hide bugs (people think code is tested when its not).
464 2014-12-22 09:15:18 <wumpus> so if you want to provide a build for a pull, provide it yourself and use your own reputation to convince people not ours
465 2014-12-22 09:15:26 <lewellyn> "so how do i download bitcoin?" "go to bitcoin-malware.com and wait. you WILL get the wallet."
466 2014-12-22 09:15:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, we'll need to make builds much easier if we want that IMO
467 2014-12-22 09:15:52 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's dead easy with the depends system
468 2014-12-22 09:15:59 <gmaxwell> wumpus: buildings things like OSX images require things like access to a mac to extract files and such.
469 2014-12-22 09:16:00 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's dead slow too
470 2014-12-22 09:16:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: only the first time
471 2014-12-22 09:16:28 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's very smart and recompiles only what changed
472 2014-12-22 09:16:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is it dead easy for Windows developers?
473 2014-12-22 09:16:30 <gmaxwell> I should try the depends stuff and see if it actually works on things that aren't ubuntu.
474 2014-12-22 09:16:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: and it doesn't need a VM or such
475 2014-12-22 09:16:36 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
476 2014-12-22 09:16:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: which windows developers?
477 2014-12-22 09:16:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: *crickets*
478 2014-12-22 09:17:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well if they had a way to get builds!
479 2014-12-22 09:17:06 <gmaxwell> :P
480 2014-12-22 09:17:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well the osx problem is not trivially solvable, that's a legal issue not a technical one
481 2014-12-22 09:17:26 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell? i think you don't need a mac to bulild a OSX image with gitian
482 2014-12-22 09:17:56 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in any case, it's annoying that travis has no facility to just fetch the builds it just did. It was a step down that we'll likely never fix because the travis stuff is good enough.
483 2014-12-22 09:18:04 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I don't want them to abuse our test system for that tough.
484 2014-12-22 09:18:09 <gmaxwell> (well good enough if you're someone who can build your own binaries)
485 2014-12-22 09:18:12 Applicat_ has joined
486 2014-12-22 09:18:28 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's up to them to fix that, not up to us
487 2014-12-22 09:18:34 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
488 2014-12-22 09:19:04 <wumpus> if you can't build your own binaries you shouldn't be doing development
489 2014-12-22 09:19:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: if someone was sending random non-serious PRs to get builds we'd zot them, we never had issues with that. It means that when someone shows up in #bitcoin with some issue we just fixed (or an issue I just fixed in response to their request), and they're on windows or OSX I've got not good way to make them a binary to try out.
490 2014-12-22 09:19:31 <wumpus> it's dangerous enough for developers with 20+ years of experience
491 2014-12-22 09:20:15 <gmaxwell> Which is something I've done a dozen times without issue until we just lost the capability.
492 2014-12-22 09:20:26 <wumpus> gmaxwell: you don't have gitian set up?
493 2014-12-22 09:20:38 <wumpus> it's really not rocket science man :)
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495 2014-12-22 09:21:13 <gmaxwell> never could get it working right on fedora. Not even with devrandom helping. Guess I'm due to try again now that my laptop is gentoo.
496 2014-12-22 09:21:38 <wumpus> yes, macosx requires some extra files to be extracted on a mac system, but I'm sure someone will send them to you if you ask in pm
497 2014-12-22 09:21:38 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, I don't have gitian set up post-depends changes
498 2014-12-22 09:22:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's not quite secure, is it? :|
499 2014-12-22 09:22:23 <Luke-Jr> or I guess the hash is still verified
500 2014-12-22 09:22:25 <gmaxwell> warren apparently got it working on fedora but it required a bunch of stuff. Generally, I'm really hesitant about stuff that requires me taking a bunch of binary code. :-/ I really should setup another host for it. Just more housekeeping which I'm massively behind on.
501 2014-12-22 09:22:28 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well if it gets the same output.
502 2014-12-22 09:22:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: my point is if A, B-with-input-from-A, and C-with-input-from-A match, it's not as meaningful
503 2014-12-22 09:23:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: taking binary code for Mac builds is unavoidable
504 2014-12-22 09:23:23 <Luke-Jr> just a matter of from where
505 2014-12-22 09:23:31 <wumpus> gmaxwell: a debian VM works fine, see eg https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/gitian-building.md
506 2014-12-22 09:23:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: FWIW, nested VT-x *should* work fine now - and I think gitian works without VT-x anyway
507 2014-12-22 09:23:56 <Luke-Jr> I did finally get gitian running natively on Gentoo with KVM though
508 2014-12-22 09:23:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the binary stuff it needs, does it need to actually _run_ it?
509 2014-12-22 09:24:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no, I think it just links with it
510 2014-12-22 09:24:33 <gmaxwell> in any case the whole host distro setup ends up being binary and irreproducable, and that all gets run.
511 2014-12-22 09:24:45 <Luke-Jr> I'm not aware of it doing any magic to execute Mac software on Linux, at least :D
512 2014-12-22 09:24:47 neozaru has joined
513 2014-12-22 09:25:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, I can't really advise people run Bitcoin software on Mac/Windows.
514 2014-12-22 09:25:21 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it works without
515 2014-12-22 09:25:30 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: use a VM + LXC inside that
516 2014-12-22 09:25:33 <gmaxwell> oh does the depends stuff. no longer shackel the build enviroment?
517 2014-12-22 09:25:33 hashtag_ has joined
518 2014-12-22 09:25:39 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ?
519 2014-12-22 09:25:51 <gmaxwell> ah yea okay it does.
520 2014-12-22 09:26:00 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well it doesn't go as far as creating a toolchain yet
521 2014-12-22 09:26:03 <wumpus> gmaxwell: pull requests welcome.
522 2014-12-22 09:26:21 <wumpus> it's a great step forward, but it's not up to replacing gitian yet
523 2014-12-22 09:26:47 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, ... the whole gitian "now upgrade the OS before building" really tosts the independance of the builds.
524 2014-12-22 09:27:14 hashtagg has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
525 2014-12-22 09:27:19 <jonasschnelli> you don't need a mac to produce the MacOSX10.7.sdk.tar.gz
526 2014-12-22 09:27:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it does, but at least someone wrote it and it works, and it produced actually deterministic results most of the time... it's not an ideal solution but that just takes time
527 2014-12-22 09:27:39 <gmaxwell> sorry, I certantly wasn't trying to complain.
528 2014-12-22 09:27:41 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: all the non-Mac extractors failed last I tried
529 2014-12-22 09:27:55 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: you don't?
530 2014-12-22 09:28:04 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: please makea script please make a script
531 2014-12-22 09:28:20 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'm happy we use it. I had just wasted too many hours uselessly trying to get it to work in the past. I should try again.
532 2014-12-22 09:28:27 won9 has quit (Quit: won9)
533 2014-12-22 09:28:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sorry you got burnt at some time, it's become slightly better
534 2014-12-22 09:28:46 <jonasschnelli> i'll provide a script
535 2014-12-22 09:28:59 <wumpus> looking at the number of gitian signatures that we get these days, people don't have as much trouble getting it to work anymore
536 2014-12-22 09:29:03 antizionist__ has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
537 2014-12-22 09:29:39 <gmaxwell> well there was some initial incompatiblity, then I got asked to use lxc but it turned out that wasn't actually working at that time. Then I think I mostly got it working but I built my outer VM with not enough space for it to actually work, and the host I built it on was low on space and yadda yadda.
538 2014-12-22 09:30:09 <gmaxwell> not really anyone's fault, but since other people had it working I didn't feel it justified more time. I guess I'll try again!
539 2014-12-22 09:30:47 rubensayshi has joined
540 2014-12-22 09:31:44 <Luke-Jr> amid the Gentoo trolling stuff, I've had a few requests for Windows builds of my patched version, so I should update gitian too I guess XD
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543 2014-12-22 09:33:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: WRT cortex a8, I generally find testing on a8 is most useful: almost everything that makes a8 faster makes a9 faster, but the reverse is not true.... though I doubt we'll ever have many people running bitcoin core on a8. (I guess a5 is also in order, and thats now being found in quite a few faster chips like that new $35 odroid)
544 2014-12-22 09:33:43 <Belxjander> A( == ARM?
545 2014-12-22 09:33:47 <Belxjander> A8 even
546 2014-12-22 09:33:58 <Luke-Jr> all Cortex are ARM AFAIK?
547 2014-12-22 09:34:27 <wumpus> gmaxwell: those odroid boards sounds interesting, I'm probably going to get one
548 2014-12-22 09:34:44 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: yea, these are arm.
549 2014-12-22 09:35:08 <Belxjander> maybe a dumb question... but is it possible to get a block by the height value?
550 2014-12-22 09:35:16 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I would have ordered one already, except my novena just showed up and I try really hard to not buy more hardware when all the hardware I already have (of that general class) isn't in use.
551 2014-12-22 09:35:17 <Belxjander> and have it exported in JSON format ?
552 2014-12-22 09:36:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: same kind of issue here
553 2014-12-22 09:37:13 <Luke-Jr> I wonder how the odroid compares with the rpi on power use
554 2014-12-22 09:37:21 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: #bitcoin
555 2014-12-22 09:39:22 JackH has joined
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557 2014-12-22 09:40:06 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: okay...thanks not a development topic then?
558 2014-12-22 09:40:47 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: no, it's a user topic; the answer is getblock(getblockhash(height)) keeping in mind multiple blocks may have the same height at different times
559 2014-12-22 09:42:26 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: well I want to get anything up to before the last hours worth
560 2014-12-22 09:43:51 <wumpus> I wonder how Marvell PXA2128/PJ4 compares, that's in my OLPC XO-4
561 2014-12-22 09:44:16 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: IIRC Marvell 'forked' an old old ARM core for their stuff
562 2014-12-22 09:46:33 <jonasschnelli> gitian: any idea why i get "./bin/gbuild:21:in `system!': failed to run on-target setarch x86_64 bash -x < var/build-script > var/build.log 2>&1 (RuntimeError)"?
563 2014-12-22 09:46:55 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: that's the most vague error you could give ;)
564 2014-12-22 09:46:57 <Luke-Jr> check build.log
565 2014-12-22 09:47:26 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: a lot of talk about how power efficient the odroid-c1 is, but wasn't able to find actual measurements
566 2014-12-22 09:48:15 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: that error message just says something went wrong in the build and you should check build.log, it should probably say that
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571 2014-12-22 10:02:02 <jonasschnelli> "wget: unable to resolve host address `samba.org'" is there any special need for a gitian-build internet setup? my debian vm can connect to the inet.
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575 2014-12-22 10:03:46 <paveljanik> jonasschnelli, you have to get deps before running it
576 2014-12-22 10:04:06 nagromlt has joined
577 2014-12-22 10:04:23 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5428
578 2014-12-22 10:04:38 <wumpus> although I wonder why internet access in the builder isn't working, it should
579 2014-12-22 10:05:14 <wumpus> but cfields added a method to download them externally
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628 2014-12-22 11:11:59 <btcdrak> jonasschnelli wumpus I can confirm gitian builds do work using the instructions at 5428
629 2014-12-22 11:12:51 <btcdrak> occasionally sf .net borks, but once just rerun make download again and it usually works second time. once you have the deps it's plain sailing.
630 2014-12-22 11:13:00 <wumpus> btcdrak: yep, but what I'm wondering is why the LXC setup instructions broke network connectivity for the builder, that used to just work, probably something that changed in debian
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634 2014-12-22 11:19:25 <wumpus> I really need to replicate those steps again
635 2014-12-22 11:19:31 <wumpus> @cfields you had any luck?
636 2014-12-22 11:24:53 huseby has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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638 2014-12-22 11:28:05 <wumpus> "DDoS attacks on in-flight data structures" (#5507) has an exciting title
639 2014-12-22 11:32:15 <wumpus> thinking about our earlier discussion, crosstool-ng + depends could be enough to replace gitian
640 2014-12-22 11:32:28 <sipa> yeah
641 2014-12-22 11:32:45 <sipa> i wonder how cfields thinks about that
642 2014-12-22 11:33:02 <wumpus> crosstool-ng gets you lots of toolchains easily, depends can build bitcoind's for those easily
643 2014-12-22 11:33:56 <wumpus> IIRC it can make mingw's toolchain too, though I have to still try that in practice
644 2014-12-22 11:34:04 <wumpus> macosx will likely be the only exception
645 2014-12-22 11:34:55 <sipa> ah, i hadn't heard about crosstool-ng; was just thinking of using an in-depends built compiler for each
646 2014-12-22 11:34:58 <wumpus> qemu-user can be used to test the generated bitcoind's tests
647 2014-12-22 11:35:13 <wumpus> it all exists, just need a lame script to hook them up :)
648 2014-12-22 11:35:27 Informerop has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
649 2014-12-22 11:35:40 <wumpus> crosstool-ng does exactly what you want
650 2014-12-22 11:35:44 CoinMuncher has joined
651 2014-12-22 11:36:17 <sipa> wumpus: also, asm optimizations for secp256k1 would be very welcome, and likely much more relevant the next few years than x86... but you probably have better things to do
652 2014-12-22 11:36:29 <wumpus> in a handy menuconfig you can configure the target architecture and it will do the work of bootstrapping the compiler and c library and even a gdb if you want that
653 2014-12-22 11:36:43 <sipa> what is rc1 still waiting for, btw?
654 2014-12-22 11:36:54 <wumpus> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+milestone%3A0.10.0
655 2014-12-22 11:37:35 <wumpus> sipa: well I actually like doing that, but yes no saying when I get around to it
656 2014-12-22 11:38:32 <wumpus> sipa: we could tag -rc1 without those, of course, as it's a given there will be a -r2
657 2014-12-22 11:39:00 Alina-malina has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
658 2014-12-22 11:39:47 <sipa> i'll do some review and testing of those today
659 2014-12-22 11:40:23 <wumpus> #5253 is sufficiently tested/acked and I'm going to merge that
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663 2014-12-22 11:42:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: crosstool-ng does not appear to be available on Gentoo FWIW
664 2014-12-22 11:42:17 <Luke-Jr> it would be nice if crossdev worked
665 2014-12-22 11:42:32 CoinMuncher has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
666 2014-12-22 11:42:33 <Luke-Jr> (for deterministic matching, I mean)
667 2014-12-22 11:43:19 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well the toolchain doesn't have to be built deterministicically itself
668 2014-12-22 11:43:38 shieye has joined
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670 2014-12-22 11:44:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: of course you need to build it from the same versions and with the same settings to get the same results out of it
671 2014-12-22 11:44:53 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: crosstool-ng is very easy to build from source, the script could do that too
672 2014-12-22 11:45:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm not using a debian package for that either but just running it from its build dir
673 2014-12-22 11:46:05 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: whoo, x86_64-unknown-linux-gnux32 toolchain is built, let's see if it works
674 2014-12-22 11:46:57 viajero has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
675 2014-12-22 11:49:13 <wumpus> ok that didn't work, it simply makes x86_64 executables
676 2014-12-22 11:49:41 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: what does file say on them?
677 2014-12-22 11:50:06 <Luke-Jr> amd64/bin/bash: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, stripped
678 2014-12-22 11:50:08 <Luke-Jr> x32/bin/bash: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 3.4.0, stripped
679 2014-12-22 11:50:32 <wumpus> ./test2: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 3.12.33, not stripped
680 2014-12-22 11:50:56 <Luke-Jr> hm
681 2014-12-22 11:51:05 <Luke-Jr> what GCC version?
682 2014-12-22 11:51:24 <wumpus> I suppose you need to pass some magic to gcc's and binutil's build too, just the host tuple is not enough?
683 2014-12-22 11:51:41 <wumpus> 4.9.2
684 2014-12-22 11:52:19 Quanttek has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
685 2014-12-22 11:52:20 <Luke-Jr> ouch, too new for me :P
686 2014-12-22 11:53:12 <Luke-Jr> if tc_version_is_at_least 4.7 && has x32 $(get_all_abis TARGET) ; then confgcc+=( --with-abi=$(gcc-abi-map ${TARGET_DEFAULT_ABI}) ) fi
687 2014-12-22 11:55:11 <Luke-Jr> --with-abi=mx32
688 2014-12-22 11:55:12 <Luke-Jr> I think
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695 2014-12-22 12:07:08 <wumpus> I've used --with-abi=x32, let's see how far it goes
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701 2014-12-22 12:13:31 <wumpus> sipa: #5459 doesn't look to difficult to test, just making validation fail randomly would do, going to give it a try
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705 2014-12-22 12:22:23 <wumpus> bitcoind --simulate-overheating-cpu
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708 2014-12-22 12:26:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: my CPU is regularly overheating, doesn't seem to hurt
709 2014-12-22 12:26:43 <Krellan> Mine too, sigh, too many cats on top of fans
710 2014-12-22 12:27:09 <Krellan> The cats love vanitygen
711 2014-12-22 12:30:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the with-abi=x32 seems to have done it, though it now stops somwhere during build of glibc
712 2014-12-22 12:31:26 <Luke-Jr> Krellan: the other day when I was doing maintenance, I found the CPU heatsink was caked solid with dust :x
713 2014-12-22 12:32:17 <wumpus> especially laptops have that problem in my experience, and it's often hardest to get at the fans
714 2014-12-22 12:33:23 <Luke-Jr> so I basically was running without a fan all that time
715 2014-12-22 12:33:23 <Luke-Jr> lol
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718 2014-12-22 12:38:50 <Krellan> Wow... I notice my fan speed slowing, and think I've lost a case fan entirely, need to open and clean it
719 2014-12-22 12:40:15 <wumpus> could be; another hint is if it starts to make lots of noise
720 2014-12-22 12:46:45 <jonasschnelli> gitian: my install.log shows troubles while loading http://10.0.3.2 precise Release.gpg (and others).... any idea?
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725 2014-12-22 12:52:22 <average> apparently the news lately have only been of the form
726 2014-12-22 12:52:34 <average> "researchers discover[..]vulnerability[..]"
727 2014-12-22 12:52:40 Gnaf has joined
728 2014-12-22 12:52:50 <average> "researchers discover [..] anyone could [..] your X"
729 2014-12-22 12:52:53 <average> 14:52 <average> Title: German Researchers Discover a Flaw That Could Let Anyone Listen to Your Cell Calls
730 2014-12-22 12:52:53 <average> 14:52 <average> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:23:10 +0200
731 2014-12-22 12:55:40 <wumpus> anyone can listen? wow, researchers turn your cell into a digital radio broadcasting device?
732 2014-12-22 12:55:55 <wumpus> oh #bitcoin
733 2014-12-22 13:00:14 <jonasschnelli> :)
734 2014-12-22 13:00:27 <Gnaf> My cell is only used for my dinner and the weather, weater they like it or not, so fuck those researchers
735 2014-12-22 13:00:37 <jonasschnelli> any idea what "W: Cannot check Release signature; keyring file not available /usr/share/keyrings/ubuntu-archive-keyring.gpg" means? building on VirtualBox Debian after wumpus manual
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737 2014-12-22 13:02:09 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: no clue :/
738 2014-12-22 13:02:46 <jonasschnelli> i got to love gitian....
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741 2014-12-22 13:06:11 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: the 10.0.3.2 error means LXC doesn't even have access to your local host
742 2014-12-22 13:06:39 <wumpus> which is the absolute minimum required for gitian otherwise it can't fetch the inner linux distro's packages
743 2014-12-22 13:06:56 <jonasschnelli> wumpus hmm... okay. let me debug that.
744 2014-12-22 13:07:05 <wumpus> it doesn't necessarily need to be able to connect to the internet (there's a workaround for that) but it does need access to the host
745 2014-12-22 13:07:50 <jonasschnelli> wumpus but it looks like that gitian is designed to run at ubuntu https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/blob/27bd5b3869c1fbbcc9a545a2b983f32d9755e2c8/bin/make-base-vm
746 2014-12-22 13:08:11 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes, feel free to switch over the guide to ubuntu
747 2014-12-22 13:08:18 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: I probably made a mistake using debian
748 2014-12-22 13:08:53 <wumpus> not that that, in principle, should have any influence on lxc or networking issues
749 2014-12-22 13:09:23 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: yes. truly... let me install a ubuntu...
750 2014-12-22 13:09:59 <jonasschnelli> i think the LXC network is fine, but the base image was missing
751 2014-12-22 13:10:09 <jonasschnelli> but the base image won't build out-of-the box on debian...
752 2014-12-22 13:10:55 <wumpus> the reason for using debian is that it has less overhead, which is nice when running a vm-ism in a vm, although ubuntu has a server edition too
753 2014-12-22 13:12:32 <jonasschnelli> yes. i also prefer debian. I try to fix gitian instead of creating a ubuntu vm (not another vm please...)
754 2014-12-22 13:13:08 iwilcox has joined
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756 2014-12-22 13:15:04 <wumpus> note that the guide tells you to change gitian's IP range, to avoid it overlapping with virtualbox's, maybe something went wrong there?
757 2014-12-22 13:15:28 Lexa has joined
758 2014-12-22 13:15:57 <wumpus> ie maybe gitian broke the setting
759 2014-12-22 13:16:23 <Gnaf> jonasschnelli: tnx for the gitian guide link, i lost it on my way to nowhere,...
760 2014-12-22 13:16:54 <jonasschnelli> Gnaf i didn't post a link to a guide?!
761 2014-12-22 13:18:47 <Gnaf> jonasschnelli: <jonasschnelli> wumpus but it looks like that gitian is designed to run at ubuntu https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/blob/27bd5b3869c1fbbcc9a545a2b983f32d9755e2c8/bin/make-base-vm
762 2014-12-22 13:19:01 <Gnaf> ;)
763 2014-12-22 13:19:21 molec has joined
764 2014-12-22 13:19:22 <jonasschnelli> thats not a guide. that the source code of bin/make-base-vm
765 2014-12-22 13:19:23 <sipa> Gnaf: there is a guide on how to do gitian builds on debian
766 2014-12-22 13:19:33 <jonasschnelli> Gnaf: the guide is herehttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/gitian-building.md
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778 2014-12-22 13:35:59 <jonasschnelli> was there already a discussion about functional testing on Qt level with mouse/keyboard input simulation?
779 2014-12-22 13:36:48 <sipa> hardly
780 2014-12-22 13:36:55 <sipa> how would you do that?
781 2014-12-22 13:38:11 <jonasschnelli> sipa: just brainstorming: build a tiny framework (maybe on cucumber base) where tests could written. The simulate user inputs (keyboard/mouse) and analyze the state and/or create screenshots for a human check.
782 2014-12-22 13:38:19 <jonasschnelli> i once did this of a OSX and iOS app
783 2014-12-22 13:38:43 <jonasschnelli> The = then
784 2014-12-22 13:40:13 <wumpus> http://qualityhour.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/automated-testing-of-qt-apps-with-testability-driver/
785 2014-12-22 13:45:16 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: cool stuff... the Testability Driver could be useful... but...
786 2014-12-22 13:45:43 <jonasschnelli> depends on how important the Qt level still is for bitcoin-core
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788 2014-12-22 13:46:14 <wumpus> well, if you want to test it then apparently it is important to you?
789 2014-12-22 13:47:15 <wumpus> though it wouldn't be high on my list of priorities, the UI is simple enough at this point to test manually
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791 2014-12-22 13:49:26 <wumpus> also having to update a test framework for every silly change, say, moving a button, will make it more involved to contribute
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796 2014-12-22 13:50:31 <wumpus> then again, if you think it's useful, be my guest. I've tried to keep it possible to launch the various widgets without a model attacked, to make UI testing possible without affecting anything else, though that probably has bitrotted over time.
797 2014-12-22 13:50:38 <jonasschnelli> "importance" in general is a big field (but lets don't get philosophical). I think more test would not harm... will reduce the risk of upcoming pulls.
798 2014-12-22 13:50:39 kobud has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
799 2014-12-22 13:50:43 <wumpus> s/attacked/attached/
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802 2014-12-22 13:52:51 <sipa> wumpus: when compiling with -flto, my compiler warns that txmempool does a memset for 0 bytes
803 2014-12-22 13:52:58 <sipa> pretty impressive that it can detect such things
804 2014-12-22 13:53:33 <sipa> especially that it doesn't discover this without flto, so it must be indirectly through some instantiation of a function from another object
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808 2014-12-22 13:54:36 <wumpus> sipa: indeed
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811 2014-12-22 13:57:42 <sipa> hmm, testnet block sync just doesn't get going
812 2014-12-22 13:57:56 <sipa> headers synced fine, and then nothing
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814 2014-12-22 13:59:09 <wumpus> strange
815 2014-12-22 13:59:13 <sipa> sorry, probably my local patch
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821 2014-12-22 14:02:13 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: but if everything else equal, I'd prefer more testing on the core side
822 2014-12-22 14:03:47 maraoz has joined
823 2014-12-22 14:04:06 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. Makes more sense there. More rpc-tests would be good
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837 2014-12-22 14:21:31 <jonasschnelli> wumpus i just try â without any particular business reason â to contribute to the bitcoin project. Because i don't have any business reason but i'm willing to spend time, feel free to point me into the direction of important points to contribute to. There is no TODO.txt :)
838 2014-12-22 14:22:39 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: the TODO list is the open issue list :)
839 2014-12-22 14:22:57 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: also you can help out *a lot* by reviewing other's changes
840 2014-12-22 14:23:14 <jonasschnelli> which misses a priority system...
841 2014-12-22 14:23:17 <wumpus> that's really where the bottleneck is, testing and reviewing
842 2014-12-22 14:23:31 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: it's not, there is a medium and high priority label
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844 2014-12-22 14:24:07 <jonasschnelli> testing and reviewing requires knowledge of the internal code which one might gain by producing litte code changes... a.k.a. little-projects
845 2014-12-22 14:24:10 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: if you have any doubts about the priority you can ask me, but on the other hand you should also pick things that you find interesting, if it isn't important there wouldn't be an issue open
846 2014-12-22 14:24:26 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Priority+High%22
847 2014-12-22 14:24:42 <wumpus> I tend to immediately close issues that fall into 'don't bother' territory
848 2014-12-22 14:25:43 <jonasschnelli> what about the dns/blocking issue? important? theres no issue for that.
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851 2014-12-22 14:26:24 <wumpus> I don't know - I've never had any concrete complaints about it at least
852 2014-12-22 14:26:47 itkor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
853 2014-12-22 14:26:58 <jonasschnelli> but right. the issue list should be "worked down" as goos as possible....
854 2014-12-22 14:26:59 <wumpus> if dns seeding isn't working there's always the built in seeds
855 2014-12-22 14:27:02 elichai2 has joined
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857 2014-12-22 14:27:51 <wumpus> which, incidentally, still need to be updated for 0.10, but may be better if someone with a seed node does that as they have the information about reliable peers
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860 2014-12-22 14:30:21 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: any update on the berkeleydb leak issue, btw?
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864 2014-12-22 14:32:44 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: was trying hard but could not locate the leak. And somehow bdb does strange memory handling. But i will have a final look and will report to the open issue
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867 2014-12-22 14:33:24 <jonasschnelli> valgrind on ubuntu gives me a different picture then my "Instruments" on OSX
868 2014-12-22 14:33:27 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: as said, if it is just some initial allocated objects it's not really a problem, only if it increases over time or by use
869 2014-12-22 14:33:56 <jonasschnelli> Indeed it's not a huge problem....
870 2014-12-22 14:34:00 <wumpus> berkeleydb is generally known to be questionable anyway
871 2014-12-22 14:34:01 Adlai has joined
872 2014-12-22 14:34:13 <wumpus> also we're using an ancient version
873 2014-12-22 14:34:13 <jonasschnelli> But it brought me to the point to find a way to get rid of bdb
874 2014-12-22 14:35:13 itkor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
875 2014-12-22 14:35:26 <jonasschnelli> I really see a need to slowly shift away from the current wallet format to a more lightweight option
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877 2014-12-22 14:36:26 <wumpus> just be aware that anything you come up with has to be supported for virtually forever
878 2014-12-22 14:36:29 <wumpus> no pressure or so
879 2014-12-22 14:36:29 <jonasschnelli> i once thought about factor more-clear out the wallet related code to build the possibility of another wallet-backend which could be switched by a bitcoind -arg
880 2014-12-22 14:36:37 <kanzure> hi jonasschnelli
881 2014-12-22 14:37:31 <jonasschnelli> Yes. support for bdb must be there forever. But if people could actively switch to another system (with manual wallet migration on script basis) it would be with less risks
882 2014-12-22 14:37:34 <wumpus> nah, a conversion utility that automatically gets called for old wallets would be fine
883 2014-12-22 14:37:35 <jonasschnelli> hi kanzure
884 2014-12-22 14:37:40 gonedrk has joined
885 2014-12-22 14:37:51 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: how long did your ppc machine take to complete one libsec test run (and two for that matter?) I'm getting: real 0m21.336s for ./tests 2, and 0m14.133s for ./tests 1
886 2014-12-22 14:37:58 <midnightmagic> Is there another benchmark I should be attempting?
887 2014-12-22 14:38:24 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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889 2014-12-22 14:40:23 <wumpus> the thing is, the current wallet *works* and there is very little interest in reviewing larger changes to it, see e.g. the large number of pulls by cozz
890 2014-12-22 14:41:07 <sipa> yeah :(
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892 2014-12-22 14:41:42 <jonasschnelli> That's true. But who want's to stick forever with bdb and the wallet.dat?
893 2014-12-22 14:42:05 <sipa> this is also about myself... i just have too little interesting in the current wallet
894 2014-12-22 14:42:41 <wumpus> forever is a long time, but it could limp along for a long time in this way
895 2014-12-22 14:42:56 <wumpus> legacy software, basically
896 2014-12-22 14:43:05 <wumpus> people also still use COBOL and mainframes
897 2014-12-22 14:43:39 <jonasschnelli> COBOL is still everywhere when you walk in a Banks IT center... :)
898 2014-12-22 14:44:56 <jonasschnelli> Conclusion: leak is harmless, bdb removal is low-prio.
899 2014-12-22 14:44:59 <wumpus> sipa: so start a new one from scratch with jonasschnelli ;)
900 2014-12-22 14:45:12 <sipa> wumpus: if i ever have a few years time :)
901 2014-12-22 14:45:16 <wumpus> hehe
902 2014-12-22 14:45:21 <sipa> i probably will, but i don't like to promise
903 2014-12-22 14:45:36 <sipa> there are many other interesting things to do as well...
904 2014-12-22 14:46:20 <jonasschnelli> kanzure: you probably need to rebase 5524
905 2014-12-22 14:46:20 <sipa> jonasschnelli: github says you're in zurich?
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907 2014-12-22 14:46:41 <jonasschnelli> Sipa: yes. Zurich an Basel.
908 2014-12-22 14:46:59 <sipa> have you attended the bitcoin meetups there?
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911 2014-12-22 14:47:20 <sipa> i live in zurich too, though it'll probably be februari before i'm back there
912 2014-12-22 14:47:20 <jonasschnelli> No. Are you there sometimes?
913 2014-12-22 14:47:41 <sipa> i have, yes
914 2014-12-22 14:47:43 <jonasschnelli> sipa thought you live in be?
915 2014-12-22 14:48:05 <sipa> i'm belgian, but i moved to zurich for google, and now i'l still lingering there :)
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918 2014-12-22 14:49:26 <jonasschnelli> Sipa: Zurich is a nice place to live! I try to once check out the meetup in zurich...
919 2014-12-22 14:49:29 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: well not so much low-prio, just that it requires a large investment of time to make any change to the current wallet, and there is so many that really needs to be changed and only few developers interested on working on it
920 2014-12-22 14:52:08 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: just because it doesn't rank high on my priority list doesn't mean that's the end of it, everyone determines their own priorities, if there's still enough interest we could assign someone as 'wallet maintainer' who coordinates the changes
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922 2014-12-22 14:54:09 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: but my feeling has always been that that that's not the case, but I've been wrong before, and thing may change as they discover their favourite web or SPV walllet ate their coins
923 2014-12-22 14:54:16 <kanzure> jonasschnelli: yep that's incoming in a few
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926 2014-12-22 14:55:45 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. Could be that after the next SPV or web wallet fiasco people looking for a save port...
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928 2014-12-22 14:56:33 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: maybe i try to slowly factor out the wallet backend with reasonable and reviewable prices of code.
929 2014-12-22 14:56:38 <jonasschnelli> prices = pieces
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931 2014-12-22 14:57:20 <sipa> jonasschnelli: http://www.meetup.com/Bitcoin-Meetup-Switzerland/
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933 2014-12-22 14:59:29 <jonasschnelli> sipa: will join once... thanks
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938 2014-12-22 15:03:25 <jonasschnelli> sipa: i've thought you work for blockstream? Why play around in the google building?
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942 2014-12-22 15:04:23 <sipa> jonasschnelli: i left google for blockstream, but haven't moved elsewhere yet
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945 2014-12-22 15:05:34 <sipa> i've lived in zurich for 2 years
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951 2014-12-22 15:09:09 <jonasschnelli> sipa: so you can now talk swiss german and know how to swim in the limmat.
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956 2014-12-22 15:15:04 <sipa> ha
957 2014-12-22 15:15:06 <sipa> gruezi
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972 2014-12-22 15:28:32 <btcdrak> cfields I have found something minor with gitian. I dont know if it's the expected behaviour, but it's not taking into account Bitcoin minor version number in filename output. So 0.10.0.1 or 0.10.0.0 will generate the same files name as bitcoin-foo-0.10.0.tar.gz for both versions
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983 2014-12-22 15:37:44 <wumpus> btcdrak: I think that's always been the case, filenames like foo-0.10.0.0.tar.gz are ugly, although it'd of course be possible to leave out the last .0 if it's 0 only
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985 2014-12-22 15:39:28 <wumpus> we only released a x.y.z.1 version once
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1035 2014-12-22 16:29:51 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: a potential approach for the wallet would be to freeze the wallet code in master, then create a newwallet branch where you (and others interested) can work on refactoring and reworking the thing, independent from most work on the master branch
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1058 2014-12-22 16:57:30 <michagogo> 15:15:20 <wumpus> note that the guide tells you to change gitian's IP range, to avoid it overlapping with virtualbox's, maybe something went wrong there?
1059 2014-12-22 16:57:30 <michagogo> 15:16:13 <wumpus> ie maybe gitian broke the setting
1060 2014-12-22 16:58:00 <michagogo> Stuff like that is why I (a while back) found the one-liner to change VBox's range instead :-)
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1062 2014-12-22 16:58:39 <wumpus> michagogo: yes, you can change vbox's range too, shouldn't matter which one you change
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1064 2014-12-22 17:00:01 <michagogo> I figured it's better to just change vbox because of possibilities like this -- I've seen how fickle gitian is, so I figured it's probably safer to adapt the environment to it as much as possible, rather than the other way around
1065 2014-12-22 17:00:41 <wumpus> feel free to update the guide to do that instead
1066 2014-12-22 17:01:38 <wumpus> although it's a pity that you can't change the ip range from virtualbox' gui, so you need platform-specific descriptions of how to do that, ie no clue where vboxmanage is on windows
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1068 2014-12-22 17:02:28 <michagogo> "C:\Program Files\Oracle\VirtualBox\VBoxManage.exe"
1069 2014-12-22 17:02:35 <wumpus> ok, add that to the guide then
1070 2014-12-22 17:02:43 xenog has joined
1071 2014-12-22 17:02:52 * michagogo doesn't remember how he changed it
1072 2014-12-22 17:02:55 * michagogo looks
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1086 2014-12-22 17:16:07 <slick2> any valuable guide regarding data types used in bitcoin c++ code
1087 2014-12-22 17:16:40 <helo> header files <3
1088 2014-12-22 17:16:49 <michagogo> wumpus: actually
1089 2014-12-22 17:16:59 <michagogo> Why not just set it to bridged networking?
1090 2014-12-22 17:17:16 <michagogo> Oh, wait, you want to SSH into it.
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1093 2014-12-22 17:17:36 <michagogo> How about having one interface bridged and one interface host-only?
1094 2014-12-22 17:17:49 <wumpus> michagogo: mehh, bridged sucks
1095 2014-12-22 17:18:21 <wumpus> michagogo: requires setting the network interface to promiscous and such, and introduces a virtual new machine into the network you're on
1096 2014-12-22 17:18:37 <wumpus> michagogo: that won't work in the general case, ie if you have a stricter network admin :)
1097 2014-12-22 17:19:10 <wumpus> michagogo: also it requires more privileges on the local machine (ie to create a bridged interface)
1098 2014-12-22 17:19:32 <wumpus> michagogo: inner-process NAT networking is nice
1099 2014-12-22 17:20:24 <michagogo> hmm
1100 2014-12-22 17:20:25 <wumpus> you can effectively have the whole VM run as a userspace process
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1102 2014-12-22 17:20:51 <michagogo> I just tried booting my Ubuntu VM for the first time since copying it over from my image
1103 2014-12-22 17:21:10 <michagogo> error: invalid arch independent ELF magic.
1104 2014-12-22 17:21:12 <michagogo> grub rescue>
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1106 2014-12-22 17:21:19 * michagogo scratches his head
1107 2014-12-22 17:22:13 <wumpus> I thought carefully about the setup in that guide
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1110 2014-12-22 17:26:20 <sipa> slick2: feel free to ask here about specific data types
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1113 2014-12-22 17:31:11 <slick2> sipa: thank you
1114 2014-12-22 17:31:22 <slick2> there are variables convention when I see the core
1115 2014-12-22 17:31:46 <slick2> they have been prepend like nAmount
1116 2014-12-22 17:31:57 <slick2> C - for Class
1117 2014-12-22 17:32:02 <slick2> v - for vector
1118 2014-12-22 17:32:07 <slick2> p - for pointer
1119 2014-12-22 17:32:10 <slick2> how about f
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1121 2014-12-22 17:32:33 <slick2> i've seen it main it was declared as bool
1122 2014-12-22 17:32:58 <slick2> fRpcRunning - what does f stand for ?
1123 2014-12-22 17:33:01 <hearn> sipa, wumpus: do either of you remember off hand how long it takes for a node to broadcast its ip via addr flooding? like how quickly it takes for an ip to propagate across the network
1124 2014-12-22 17:33:32 <hearn> slick2: flag
1125 2014-12-22 17:33:40 <slick2> i see, thank you
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1128 2014-12-22 17:35:02 <wumpus> slick2: note that we don't use that convention anymore in new code
1129 2014-12-22 17:35:11 <slick2> on libbit ?
1130 2014-12-22 17:35:43 <slick2> i see, so there is a new convention ?
1131 2014-12-22 17:36:24 <wumpus> hearn: every 24 hours, after initial block download is complete
1132 2014-12-22 17:36:41 <hearn> wumpus: do nodes relay the addr broadcasts immediately?
1133 2014-12-22 17:36:50 <wumpus> slick2: no, just use sane variable names
1134 2014-12-22 17:36:53 <hearn> i'm wondering how long it'll take to show up in an addr message if a node goes offline for a while then comes back
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1139 2014-12-22 17:40:31 <wumpus> hearn: addresses are immediately broadcasted to a subset of other nodes, for others they will trickle
1140 2014-12-22 17:41:05 <hearn> right. so if you're several hops away i guess it can take a while to show up
1141 2014-12-22 17:41:06 <hearn> ok, thanks
1142 2014-12-22 17:41:41 <cfields> wumpus: yes, i would be more than happy to move towards something like that
1143 2014-12-22 17:41:47 <cfields> (re: gitian)
1144 2014-12-22 17:42:51 <wumpus> cfields: I'm having lots of fun with crosstool-ng, don't know if you know it
1145 2014-12-22 17:43:13 <cfields> wumpus: yea, i've used it before
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1147 2014-12-22 17:44:41 <cfields> wumpus: and yes, i very much believe that we don't need a full-blown VM. a deterministic toolchain should be enough, which is what you're hinting at i guess?
1148 2014-12-22 17:45:40 * hearn wondered why gitian uses a VM for a long time
1149 2014-12-22 17:45:58 <wumpus> cfields: well I'm currently doing the following: build a toolchain using crosstool-ng, build the bitcoin depends using that target using depends, build bitcoind+tests, execute tests using qemu-user for the architecture
1150 2014-12-22 17:46:00 <hearn> it doesn't even have to be fully deterministic. just deterministic enough that the remaining differences can be easily explained
1151 2014-12-22 17:46:17 <cfields> hearn: it's always seemed like a really big hammer to me. admittedly it's easier than tracking down every possible source of variation
1152 2014-12-22 17:46:29 <wumpus> the toolchain executables themselves don't have to be deterministic, just their result
1153 2014-12-22 17:46:36 <cfields> but we've already done that anyway by now, so imo the big hammer isn't really needed anymore
1154 2014-12-22 17:46:48 <wumpus> which, in practice, works
1155 2014-12-22 17:47:10 <cfields> wumpus: yes, i was going to begin testing qemu-user for travis. looks like you're a step ahead of me :)
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1157 2014-12-22 17:47:16 <cfields> (for mips)
1158 2014-12-22 17:47:22 <wumpus> cfields: nice
1159 2014-12-22 17:47:34 <wumpus> cfields: aarch64 passes too
1160 2014-12-22 17:47:43 <hearn> they way we do reproducible builds for bitcoinj and other JVM based projects is just say "use this version of the jdk, compile, then unzip the JAR and compare each file with md5sum"
1161 2014-12-22 17:47:48 <hearn> it's super simple
1162 2014-12-22 17:47:48 * helo would be very happy to dispense with a VM
1163 2014-12-22 17:47:51 <michagogo> 19:46:17 <hearn> it doesn't even have to be fully deterministic. just deterministic enough that the remaining differences can be easily explained <-- true, sort of, but how many users are going to bindiff the results and check that those differences are the only ones?
1164 2014-12-22 17:47:55 <cfields> wumpus: really great work on the BE work, that's great to see
1165 2014-12-22 17:48:03 <hearn> michagogo: you script it. then the process is "review the script"
1166 2014-12-22 17:48:13 <michagogo> (answer: even fewer than the number that check the hashes)
1167 2014-12-22 17:48:25 <wumpus> the result *does* have to be fully deterministic, I'm not going to compromise on that
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1169 2014-12-22 17:48:29 <helo> ^
1170 2014-12-22 17:48:32 <hearn> michagogo: e.g. the java build process ends up with a JAR that is always different because the zip contains timestamps. but you just unzip it, and compare the files to see there are no binary differences
1171 2014-12-22 17:48:32 <wumpus> cfields: thanks :)
1172 2014-12-22 17:48:36 <cfields> hearn: that's exactly what gitian does. it pegs an entire system to a defined version of tools, then builds with em
1173 2014-12-22 17:48:52 <michagogo> cfields: erm, it does?
1174 2014-12-22 17:48:58 <michagogo> I thought it always updates packages
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1178 2014-12-22 17:49:03 <hearn> i meant - you script the process of explaining the differences
1179 2014-12-22 17:49:05 <cfields> but instead of that, we can just drill down the exact tools that need to be deterministic, and work em out in depends
1180 2014-12-22 17:49:29 <hearn> e.g. if the binary always differs at offsets 0x1234-0x1238 because it's got a timestamp, you just zero those out, or exclude them from the bindiff report
1181 2014-12-22 17:49:34 <cfields> michagogo: well sure, but it's always the same for everyone. it's just a cheap/easy way of pegging versions without having to actually list hundreds of package versions
1182 2014-12-22 17:49:48 <helo> why would there be a timestamp in the binary?
1183 2014-12-22 17:49:50 <wumpus> cfields: if you use a fixed version + config of gcc, binutils, libc you should be golden
1184 2014-12-22 17:49:58 <michagogo> cfields: well, not necessarily if someone tries to reproduce it later
1185 2014-12-22 17:50:21 <cfields> wumpus: correct. iirc depends builds are fully deterministic (locally) already
1186 2014-12-22 17:50:44 <wumpus> cfields: macosx will be the only platform where we can't build the full toolchain for
1187 2014-12-22 17:50:50 <cfields> wumpus: so maybe crosstools-ng would be perfect to settle those last toolchain bits
1188 2014-12-22 17:50:57 <wumpus> (I guess)
1189 2014-12-22 17:51:31 <cfields> wumpus: we can for sure
1190 2014-12-22 17:51:37 <cfields> it'd just be clang instead
1191 2014-12-22 17:51:41 <wumpus> ok
1192 2014-12-22 17:51:42 <cfields> (we already build its binutils)
1193 2014-12-22 17:51:49 <wumpus> clang is easy to build
1194 2014-12-22 17:52:00 <helo> how would this compare to just a sanctioned chroot to download and build inside?
1195 2014-12-22 17:52:02 <wumpus> (in general, I don't know about macosx)
1196 2014-12-22 17:52:07 <wumpus> no chroot is needed
1197 2014-12-22 17:52:49 <wumpus> it's just like embedded development, you bootstrap toolchain that builds the rest, it will not use any header or library on your system
1198 2014-12-22 17:53:20 <helo> e.g. if i'm running debian stable, i will be able to get all of the proper packages/lib versions to build?
1199 2014-12-22 17:53:36 <helo> *in order to build
1200 2014-12-22 17:53:36 <wumpus> sure, you need a gcc that is able to build gcc...
1201 2014-12-22 17:53:59 <cfields> helo: distro doesn't matter. we bootstrap a host toolchain, then use it to build our own sources. the build is the same for everyone
1202 2014-12-22 17:54:17 <helo> ah, nice
1203 2014-12-22 17:54:21 <cfields> unless your initial compiler changes the resulting compiler's end-result, which would be worrisome in its own way
1204 2014-12-22 17:54:24 <wumpus> should have less requirements than current gitian, at least less weird ones.
1205 2014-12-22 17:54:54 <wumpus> cfields: eh yes, if compiling a compiler with a different compiler results in different executables that's certainly worth looking at in detail if that happens
1206 2014-12-22 17:55:17 <cfields> wumpus: actually, it may be worth investigating clang for all targets
1207 2014-12-22 17:55:28 <wumpus> cfields: nah, gcc is nice for x86, it is *really* smart
1208 2014-12-22 17:55:42 <cfields> i haven't checked on its win32/win64 status lately. but a single clang binary can target multiple arches very easily
1209 2014-12-22 17:55:57 <wumpus> please just use gcc mingw for windows
1210 2014-12-22 17:56:30 <cfields> bleh, ok for now. i'll save that argument for later :)
1211 2014-12-22 17:56:37 <wumpus> for other platforms, ie ARM I wouldn't be surprised if it makes less of a difference
1212 2014-12-22 17:57:00 <wumpus> but mingw is well used, I wouldn't want to go with experimental for windows
1213 2014-12-22 17:58:04 <cfields> wumpus: with new-enough gcc/binutils, i believe a depends build is entirely deterministic. in your recent mips/aarch64 builds have you seen that as the case?
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1215 2014-12-22 17:58:34 <cfields> if so, i'll just experiment with hooking up crosstool to depends
1216 2014-12-22 17:58:44 <wumpus> cfields: yes
1217 2014-12-22 17:59:30 <cfields> ok
1218 2014-12-22 17:59:58 <hearn> https://blockchain.info/xpub/xpub6CUGRUonZSQ4TWtTMmzXdrXDtypWKiKrhko4egpiMZbpiaQL2jkwSB1icqYh2cfDfVxdx4df189oLKnC5fSwqPfgyP3hooxujYzAu3fDVmz
1219 2014-12-22 18:00:00 <hearn> interesting new feature
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1222 2014-12-22 18:03:38 <kanzure> huh, even with fundrawtransaction there's no way to specify a fee?
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1229 2014-12-22 18:06:33 <wumpus> hearn: interesting
1230 2014-12-22 18:09:02 <belcher> very nice
1231 2014-12-22 18:10:12 <kanzure> is settxfee specific to relaying, or is it specific to transaction creation?
1232 2014-12-22 18:10:25 <wumpus> transaction creation
1233 2014-12-22 18:10:31 <kanzure> thank you
1234 2014-12-22 18:11:05 <wumpus> it does not affect relaying
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1240 2014-12-22 18:22:09 <wumpus> I suppose that blockchain page iterates over transactions of child keys publically derived from a certain parent key, until it encounters a large enough gap?
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1257 2014-12-22 18:41:29 <kanzure> wumpus: perhaps those are only keys that were created on blockchain.info's wallet feature thingy
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1261 2014-12-22 18:51:02 <hearn> wumpus: probably
1262 2014-12-22 18:52:47 <wumpus> kanzure: I'm not sure what other wallets support the xpub: scheme, maybe electrum?
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1271 2014-12-22 19:01:05 <kgk> wumpus: I think breadwallet does too: https://github.com/voisine/breadwallet/blob/master/BreadWallet/BRBIP32Sequence.m#L37
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1273 2014-12-22 19:02:22 <gmaxwell> it's a bit concerning in that it'll discourage people to casually abandon privacy without considering the implications; also it'll create pressure against using hardened keys, which are safer.
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1275 2014-12-22 19:03:55 <bsm117532> electrum has its own scheme. It's pre-BIP32 if I recall.
1276 2014-12-22 19:03:59 <bsm117532> copay.io uses xpub.
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1281 2014-12-22 19:09:26 <wumpus> gmaxwell: maybe not, I mean having your transactions listed together on blockchain.info is a good indication that what you're doing doesn't give you actual privacy
1282 2014-12-22 19:09:51 <wumpus> so it's educative in that way
1283 2014-12-22 19:10:44 <bsm117532> Don't forget that BIP32 lets you do hardened key derivations, using the privkey, that can't be tracked.
1284 2014-12-22 19:11:11 <wumpus> bsm117532: oh I know
1285 2014-12-22 19:11:25 <bsm117532> Honestly sometimes I feel like BIP32 is a step backwards. Random keys are better in a lot of ways.
1286 2014-12-22 19:12:06 <wumpus> well, nothing holds you back fron using random keys, deterministic keys can be much more conventient though
1287 2014-12-22 19:12:28 <wumpus> especially with regards to backups
1288 2014-12-22 19:13:48 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: hardened vs not has nothing to do with tracking.
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1292 2014-12-22 19:14:11 <gmaxwell> Non-hardened are not trackable without the not-public-unless-you-make-it-public-by-giving-it-to-a-webpage chaincode.
1293 2014-12-22 19:14:12 <wumpus> having to reback-up every time your keypool advances by a certain number of keys is extremely non-intuitive to users and has resulted in many lost coins
1294 2014-12-22 19:14:47 <wumpus> gmaxwell: true, as long as you don't give the public derivation parent key to anyone it's just as private, but then why use it
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1296 2014-12-22 19:15:36 <wumpus> (instead of hardened derivation)
1297 2014-12-22 19:15:40 <gmaxwell> wumpus: e.g. you can put one on your webserver to hand out keys to customers-- which was the actual application I originally proposed this structure for.
1298 2014-12-22 19:16:09 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: but parties participating in multisig do get each other's pubkeys, so have the capability of doing derivations.
1299 2014-12-22 19:16:09 <gmaxwell> (Because the FSF asked me if there was a way that they could give out unique keys to differentiate payments by different donors without having the private keys on the webserver)
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1301 2014-12-22 19:16:38 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ah yes of couse, I forgot about that one for a moment
1302 2014-12-22 19:17:08 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's meant as an improvement over 'pre-generate a shitload of addresses'
1303 2014-12-22 19:17:20 <gmaxwell> The hardened derrivation is greatly preferable for all cases where it can be used... as it doesn't have that one privkey leak leaks all private keys property.
1304 2014-12-22 19:17:46 <bsm117532> Oh yeah...that really sucks too...
1305 2014-12-22 19:18:24 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: so? they can't participate otherwise.
1306 2014-12-22 19:19:09 <bsm117532> Just saying that keeping your pubkeys private for privacy reasons isn't generally possible there.
1307 2014-12-22 19:19:55 <wumpus> why would you have to reveal any parent keys?
1308 2014-12-22 19:20:46 <wumpus> for multisig you just have to reveal the direct pubkey to pay to, ie the child
1309 2014-12-22 19:20:51 <bsm117532> Question is: if I have your pubkey because we have a multisig wallet together, does your wallet software do any non-hardened derivations off it? It's a wallet policy choice that it doesn't have to do.
1310 2014-12-22 19:21:18 <wumpus> IIRC for sanity's sake you don't do derivation from any key that you use for payment
1311 2014-12-22 19:22:05 <gmaxwell> I don't understand the question.
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1313 2014-12-22 19:24:58 <bsm117532> Correct me if I'm wrong, but BIP32 can do derivations off *any* pubkey, no? With the one-pubkey-leak leaks all pubkeys property... (or is that only true for privkeys?)
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1315 2014-12-22 19:25:41 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: yes so?
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1317 2014-12-22 19:26:39 <gmaxwell> that property doesn't just apply to children, it applies up and down whereever you can derive owing to the linearity of the cryptosystem.
1318 2014-12-22 19:28:13 <bsm117532> So anyone participating in a multisig wallet *may* be able to know other keys and addresses being used by their fellow copayers. (depending on their wallet software)
1319 2014-12-22 19:28:16 <wumpus> also up? meaning you can derive the parent?
1320 2014-12-22 19:29:18 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: wouldn't make any sense, those should all be hardened.
1321 2014-12-22 19:29:35 <bsm117532> gmaxwell: agreed. It's a bad wallet. But it will happen somewhere.
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1323 2014-12-22 19:30:17 <gmaxwell> bsm117532: well, if you're going to use ineptly designed wallet software thats probably the least of your problems.
1324 2014-12-22 19:30:39 <bsm117532> ;-)
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1330 2014-12-22 19:37:25 <sipa> hearn: awesome
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1353 2014-12-22 19:56:31 <wumpus> cfields: I'm explicitly passing HOST=x86_64-unknown-linux-gnux32 to depends, but somehow it still uses gcc, g++ without host prefix, any idea how to avoid this?
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1355 2014-12-22 19:57:41 <cfields> wumpus: mm, that one's tricky because there are some hacks to ensure that gcc gets used for 64bit+32bit builds, as opposed to how every other cross setup works
1356 2014-12-22 19:57:49 <cfields> sec, let me find that particular hack
1357 2014-12-22 19:58:01 <wumpus> cfields: sure, normally that's sane, but can I just override it?
1358 2014-12-22 19:59:05 <wumpus> I removed the x86_64 specific stuff in linux.mk, but that doesn't seem to be enough
1359 2014-12-22 19:59:08 <cfields> wumpus: see depends/hosts/linux.mk
1360 2014-12-22 19:59:49 <cfields> wumpus: ah right, also the detection script doesn't see it correctly
1361 2014-12-22 19:59:53 <cfields> 1 min, let me refresh
1362 2014-12-22 20:00:22 <wumpus> maybe it cached something already
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1364 2014-12-22 20:01:15 <wumpus> no, wiping the entire directory didn't make it forget either
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1368 2014-12-22 20:04:14 <michagogo> wumpus: re: gitian building
1369 2014-12-22 20:04:35 <michagogo> If we're already changing it to use VBoxManage to set natnet
1370 2014-12-22 20:04:47 <michagogo> Should we also use it to set up the port forwarding?
1371 2014-12-22 20:06:09 <cfields> wumpus: looks to me like it should work if you just comment-out that entire ifeq..endif block
1372 2014-12-22 20:06:11 <cfields> you tried that?
1373 2014-12-22 20:07:08 <michagogo> The two commands are `VBoxManage modifyvm gitianbuild --natnet1 "10.0.3/24"` and `VBoxManage modifyvm gitianbuild --natpf1 "SSH,tcp,,2222,,22"`
1374 2014-12-22 20:07:08 <gribble> Error: "2222,,22" is not a valid command.
1375 2014-12-22 20:07:15 <michagogo> Shut up, gribble
1376 2014-12-22 20:07:24 <wumpus> cfields: yes, that's what I did
1377 2014-12-22 20:07:36 <michagogo> (where 10.0.3/24 can be any netrange)
1378 2014-12-22 20:09:03 <michagogo> wumpus: Doing that would mean avoiding the VM settings GUI entirely
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1380 2014-12-22 20:09:29 <wumpus> michagogo: ok
1381 2014-12-22 20:09:57 <wumpus> michagogo: please update the guide, then
1382 2014-12-22 20:09:59 <michagogo> wumpus: Do you want to make the change, or should I try to? (I'm not very good at explanatory writing, but I can try...)
1383 2014-12-22 20:10:04 <michagogo> okay
1384 2014-12-22 20:10:51 <cfields> wumpus: seems to work correctly here. not building of course because i don't have that toolchain setup. but it's erroring as i'd expect...
1385 2014-12-22 20:10:54 <michagogo> Where is VBoxManage on Linux? (And what's the capitalization?)
1386 2014-12-22 20:10:55 <cfields> what errors are you getting?
1387 2014-12-22 20:11:03 <michagogo> Or is it in PATH?
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1389 2014-12-22 20:11:49 <wumpus> cfields: it keeps passing CC="gcc" CXX="g++" to the first package
1390 2014-12-22 20:11:54 <wumpus> cfields: oh, native ccache lol
1391 2014-12-22 20:11:58 <cfields> which package?
1392 2014-12-22 20:11:59 <cfields> yea :)
1393 2014-12-22 20:12:45 <wumpus> michagogo: on linux you can assume it to be in PATH
1394 2014-12-22 20:13:00 <michagogo> Okay, thanks. And it's VBoxManage, right?
1395 2014-12-22 20:13:05 <wumpus> michagogo: although it's called vboxmanage here, not VBoxManage
1396 2014-12-22 20:13:09 <michagogo> Ah, okay
1397 2014-12-22 20:13:22 <michagogo> On Windows it's VBoxmanage
1398 2014-12-22 20:13:26 <michagogo> s/m/M/
1399 2014-12-22 20:13:35 <michagogo> Good thing Windows is case-insensitive :D
1400 2014-12-22 20:14:00 <michagogo> Hm, any idea where it is on Mac?
1401 2014-12-22 20:14:15 <wumpus> no
1402 2014-12-22 20:14:22 <michagogo> hm, okay
1403 2014-12-22 20:14:25 <wumpus> understand why I insisted on setting everything through the gui?
1404 2014-12-22 20:14:27 * michagogo will try to find out
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1408 2014-12-22 20:17:11 <michagogo> wumpus: just checked, my father's Mac has vbox installed
1409 2014-12-22 20:17:21 <michagogo> vboxmanage is in PATH
1410 2014-12-22 20:17:26 <wumpus> cfields: seems to have worked, thanks
1411 2014-12-22 20:18:23 <cfields> wumpus: np. i'll whip up a patch that takes the userspace into account
1412 2014-12-22 20:18:34 <michagogo> wumpus: Does it matter what we set the natnet to? 10.0.3/24? or perhaps 10.13.37/24? Or anything else?
1413 2014-12-22 20:18:41 <michagogo> Perhaps we should use 192.168.11/24
1414 2014-12-22 20:18:49 <michagogo> Make Gavin happy :P
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1421 2014-12-22 20:23:34 <wumpus> hehe
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1463 2014-12-22 21:41:29 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: how fast does your ppc host burn through 1 or 2 iterations of the libsec test?
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1467 2014-12-22 21:49:44 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: in 64 bit mode, which is considably faster than 32bit, one run takes 5 seconds.
1468 2014-12-22 21:50:35 <gmaxwell> (to be clear by one run I mean ./tests 1 )
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1470 2014-12-22 21:50:48 <gmaxwell> 32bit appears to be 6.3 seconds.
1471 2014-12-22 21:51:16 <gmaxwell> though lets see if wumpus' 32 bit typing patch changes things....
1472 2014-12-22 21:51:25 <sipa> there are a bunch of tests that run just once, on non-random inputs
1473 2014-12-22 21:51:33 <sipa> but i believe they're very short
1474 2014-12-22 21:52:17 <sipa> 0.7s here
1475 2014-12-22 21:52:20 <gmaxwell> if you're wondering about constant overheads, really the precomp for init is probably slower than all the run once tests.
1476 2014-12-22 21:52:40 <sipa> it's a few ms
1477 2014-12-22 21:52:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, my numbers were on the not very fast PPC host midnightmagic was asking about.
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1483 2014-12-22 22:04:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: have any thoughts on a siging api that takes a function that provides r and k^-1? The rational is that some applications care more about latency than throughput, nonces can be precomputed (in batches too, for an additional speedup). With precomputation of r and k^-1, signing latency can easily be under 1 microsecond. (hm I should test with your scalar asm, bet it's even faster).
1484 2014-12-22 22:05:03 <sipa> is there an actual use case?
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1486 2014-12-22 22:05:43 <sipa> i don't mind, but there's little point in complicating the API without anyone using it
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1488 2014-12-22 22:06:12 <sipa> precomputed nonces means they're not dependent on key/msg as well
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1490 2014-12-22 22:06:22 <sipa> so it has some risks i guess
1491 2014-12-22 22:07:15 <gmaxwell> Yes for a use case: if you want signed messages in timestamps and in consensus protocols whos perfomance is bounded by communications delay. perhaps best to wait for an actual _user_.
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1495 2014-12-22 22:08:28 <gmaxwell> High signature latency is one of the reasons given why NTP's cryptoauth uses crappy symmetric macs instead of signatures. With this optimization signature latency is competative with hashing.
1496 2014-12-22 22:09:17 <sipa> RFC6979 using sha256 is already a dozen microseconds to compute the nonce... :(
1497 2014-12-22 22:09:20 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: what the hell, mine takes 14.
1498 2014-12-22 22:09:42 <midnightmagic> what the hell piece of crap is this thing...
1499 2014-12-22 22:09:49 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: what's the machine you're using?
1500 2014-12-22 22:10:26 <midnightmagic> ./tests 2 takes 20 seconds, ./tests 1 takes about 14.
1501 2014-12-22 22:11:03 <gmaxwell> I benchmarked it yestuday because I was attempting to convince Poul-Henning Kamp that security against an adversarial network would be a good design objective to include in his ntpd replacement project ( http://phk.freebsd.dk/time/ ), and wanted concrete numbers for how low I could get the latency.
1502 2014-12-22 22:11:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: /proc/cpuinfo says PPC970FX 2300.000000MHz 512K L2. (it's a dual cpu)
1503 2014-12-22 22:12:09 <gmaxwell> turns out that doing the nonce precomputation makes it blistering fast, as expected.
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1506 2014-12-22 22:13:31 <midnightmagic> PPC970, altivec supported, 1600.000000MHz, 512K unified
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1508 2014-12-22 22:14:06 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: well there you go.
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1511 2014-12-22 22:15:27 <midnightmagic> BAH
1512 2014-12-22 22:18:33 <midnightmagic> geez how disappointing it's not even a dual core, that was the whole reason I bought it was for the multicore.
1513 2014-12-22 22:18:42 <Luke-Jr> :/
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1530 2014-12-22 22:54:28 <michagogo> wumpus: done
1531 2014-12-22 22:55:17 <michagogo> BTW, is there a way to tag a PR such that Travis won't bother testing it?
1532 2014-12-22 22:55:35 <michagogo> Seems like a waste to rebuild and retest the whole thing for a doc change
1533 2014-12-22 22:55:50 <sipa> yes, add a commit that deletes .travis.yml :)
1534 2014-12-22 22:56:34 <michagogo> sipa: er, won't that just break it entirely?
1535 2014-12-22 22:56:40 <michagogo> (if merged, I mean)
1536 2014-12-22 22:57:32 <Luke-Jr> waste? what does that mean?
1537 2014-12-22 22:57:33 <sipa> well if someone merges that, we have a problem :)
1538 2014-12-22 22:57:48 <Luke-Jr> (it's more of a waste to try to disable it)
1539 2014-12-22 22:58:41 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: a waste of resources
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1541 2014-12-22 22:59:16 <michagogo> No point in rebuilding and retesting for something that can't possibly affect the binaries
1542 2014-12-22 23:00:15 <sipa> your time is also valuable :)
1543 2014-12-22 23:00:56 <michagogo> sipa: sure, but if there were an easy way to tell travis to skip it...
1544 2014-12-22 23:01:22 <michagogo> Even just something simple like "skiptravis" in the commit/PR message
1545 2014-12-22 23:01:50 <michagogo> Oh
1546 2014-12-22 23:01:55 <michagogo> Turns out that *does* exist: http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/how-to-skip-a-build/
1547 2014-12-22 23:05:41 <michagogo> Um, why is our badge grey (error)?
1548 2014-12-22 23:06:30 <michagogo> Hm, looks like the win32 test hung on https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/builds/44826997
1549 2014-12-22 23:06:39 <michagogo> https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/44827005
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