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   6 2014-12-28 00:12:59 <sibiria> hi. what is the rationale behind connecting only to one peer per /16 network group?
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   8 2014-12-28 00:13:40 <sibiria> one peer per /8 is a no-brainer, but i can't wrap my head around /16
   9 2014-12-28 00:13:54 <michagogo> sibiria: per /8?
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  11 2014-12-28 00:14:32 <michagogo> Too restrictive, probably
  12 2014-12-28 00:15:06 <phantomcircuit> sibiria, /16 is wide enough to catch most allocations and narrow enough not to cause issues
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  17 2014-12-28 00:19:47 <sibiria> phantomcircuit: one per /16 seems like a way too large gauge. are there any graphs done one discarded vs connectable nodes from /16? what are the supposed issues with goign with a /8 target?
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  19 2014-12-28 00:20:50 <gmaxwell> sibiria: If the restriction is to ogreat it makes life easier for an attacker. E.g. with a little bit of effort you can be much more /8 diverse than the honest network is on average.
  20 2014-12-28 00:21:05 <gmaxwell> This is less true for the /16 bottleneck.
  21 2014-12-28 00:21:08 <sipa> we only make 8 outgoing connections anyway
  22 2014-12-28 00:21:28 <sipa> and the requirement is basically being connected to at least one honest network node
  23 2014-12-28 00:21:30 <gmaxwell> s/ogreat/great/
  24 2014-12-28 00:21:44 <sipa> there are plenty of /16's with bitcoin nodes to pick from still
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  27 2014-12-28 00:22:22 <sipa> controlling different /8's is easy for an attacker
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  29 2014-12-28 00:22:54 <sibiria> as said, why not /8 is a no-brainer
  30 2014-12-28 00:22:54 <sipa> controlling 8 different /16's is much harder
  31 2014-12-28 00:23:12 <sipa> wait, i'm confusing /8 with /24
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  33 2014-12-28 00:24:57 <sibiria> any plans on introducing a tunable value for the amount of outgoing connections?
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  37 2014-12-28 00:26:39 <sipa> No.
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  41 2014-12-28 00:27:53 <sibiria> given the network's growth, it happens often that you connect to 8 burdened nodes delivering untimely block updates
  42 2014-12-28 00:28:32 <sibiria> i noticed this a while ago on a very large altcoin, so i decided to try the same on the bitcoin network, and the occurance was more prevalent there
  43 2014-12-28 00:28:56 <sibiria> i thought it wouldn't be a big problem given the long 10 min. block target, but i was wrong
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  46 2014-12-28 00:33:53 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I don't believe thats correct. It certantly doesn't match my observations.
  47 2014-12-28 00:35:08 <sibiria> it stands true primarily due to the fact the vast majority of connections in the network are wallets, not nodes. upnp doesn't seem to counter this too much
  48 2014-12-28 00:35:16 <gmaxwell> Or cdecker's, which observes 500th percentile propagation in about 5 seconds.
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  50 2014-12-28 00:35:59 <gmaxwell> sibiria: It's unclear what you're talking about with "wallets, not nodes"; you won't ever be connecting inbound with something that isn't a node.
  51 2014-12-28 00:38:49 Lightsword has quit (Quit: Lightsword)
  52 2014-12-28 00:38:53 <sibiria> a node that listens to incoming connections, contra, say, a service setting listen to 0 to avoid being encumbered
  53 2014-12-28 00:40:20 <gmaxwell> You're certantly not ever connecting inbound to something that doesn't accept inbound connections.
  54 2014-12-28 00:40:45 <sibiria> of course
  55 2014-12-28 00:40:53 <sibiria> that should obvious from the term "node"
  56 2014-12-28 00:41:16 <sibiria> if it doesn't service incoming requests it isn't helping the network as much as it could
  57 2014-12-28 00:41:25 <sipa> i'm not sure what you're talking about
  58 2014-12-28 00:41:42 <sipa> you're not ever connecting to a wallet which does not function as a full node
  59 2014-12-28 00:41:54 <sipa> (you may accept connections from them, of course)
  60 2014-12-28 00:42:07 <sipa> but the outgoing connections are always to full nodes, which should help relaying
  61 2014-12-28 00:42:08 <sibiria> no one ever said so, so i'm not sure why you are stating this
  62 2014-12-28 00:42:11 <gmaxwell> In any case, as mentioned observed propagation times in bitcoin at about 5 seconds to all reachable nodes in the 50-th percentile, about 20 seconds in the 90-th percentile.   The probablity that you pick 8 nodes who are all in the last 10percent is very low. so low that there is only a 1:10000 chance than even a single node out of 10000 is in that state.
  63 2014-12-28 00:42:14 <sibiria> yes - but just 8 of them
  64 2014-12-28 00:42:38 <sibiria> with no way of estimating whether they are permanently overburdened, or able to relay transactions and blocks timely
  65 2014-12-28 00:43:23 <gmaxwell> sibiria: if they're overloaded and not timely they'll simply tell us about new blocks later than our other peers and we will not use them.
  66 2014-12-28 00:43:23 <sipa> strongly selecting for connections with fast relay times means you end up with a more easily partitioned network
  67 2014-12-28 00:43:31 <sibiria> gmaxwell: was cdecker's result posted anywhere for studying?
  68 2014-12-28 00:44:22 <sibiria> sipa: i don't get why point that out when you cannot estimate a node's responsiveness at any given point in time
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  70 2014-12-28 00:45:02 <gmaxwell> sibiria: you keep repeating that but it doesn't make any sense. The peers actual behavior is an instantanious measurement of it's responsiveness.
  71 2014-12-28 00:45:32 <sipa> sibiria: the peer that gives you a new valid block first is likely the most responsive/nearby one
  72 2014-12-28 00:45:36 <gmaxwell> When a new block shows up its existance is flooded through the network. We fetch the block from the first peer to tell us about it.
  73 2014-12-28 00:46:13 <sipa> sibiria: that's enough as a measurement; if at every block you would disconnect the last peer to tell you about it, and randomly pick a new one to connect to instead, we'd end up with a *very* clustered network
  74 2014-12-28 00:46:15 <gmaxwell> 7 of our peers might have mysteriously become slow just nanoseconds before; and yet we'll still manage to get performance only bounded by the fastest peer.
  75 2014-12-28 00:46:45 <sibiria> are you implying that the btc core does filter out slower nodes?
  76 2014-12-28 00:46:47 <sipa> sibiria: anyway, i'm not sure what you're saying; just that we should connect to more peers? i don't believe that's valuable at all
  77 2014-12-28 00:47:04 <gmaxwell> sibiria: no, we are saying that it doesn't have to.
  78 2014-12-28 00:47:05 <sipa> sibiria: no, we don't do that; i'm just saying that we easily could - but that it could also easily be a very bad thing to do
  79 2014-12-28 00:47:17 <sibiria> sipa: yes i agree
  80 2014-12-28 00:47:30 <sibiria> gmaxwell: is his test results available anywhere for reading?
  81 2014-12-28 00:47:32 <sibiria> cdecker's
  82 2014-12-28 00:47:39 <gmaxwell> and right, Pieter is saying that doing so would be very harmful to the topology because it would make the network easily partitioned (or even self partitioning)
  83 2014-12-28 00:47:48 <gmaxwell> sibiria: probably.
  84 2014-12-28 00:48:00 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I am confused as to why you're claiming otherwise?
  85 2014-12-28 00:48:02 <sipa> that does not mean that measuring responsiveness of peers is a bad idea (we actually already measure ing times)
  86 2014-12-28 00:48:41 <sipa> but it's hard to find a balance between optimizing for relay speed and preventing (accidental or intentional) partitioning of the network
  87 2014-12-28 00:48:47 <sibiria> i have no opinion regarding the responsiveness of peers. it's a natural coincidence that some may be heavily burdened
  88 2014-12-28 00:48:54 <gmaxwell> The fetching process is itself self-calibrating. It uses the announcement time to control where it fetches from.  This just doesn't change the topography.
  89 2014-12-28 00:49:17 <sipa> yup, some may be burdened, some of the time
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  91 2014-12-28 00:49:23 <sipa> some may even be burdened all of the time
  92 2014-12-28 00:49:28 <sipa> unlikely that all are :)
  93 2014-12-28 00:49:59 <sibiria> and with only 8 outgoing connections, the chances of hitting just burdened peers is larger than letting the user tune to f.e. 12 or 16 outgoing connections
  94 2014-12-28 00:50:10 <gmaxwell> sibiria: it doesn't matter if some are heavily burdened. We are only slowed if all our peerrs are heavily burened. E.g. so if there is a 10% chance a random peer is burdened, the probablity that all our peers are burdened is very low.
  95 2014-12-28 00:50:20 <sibiria> and the risk grows larger in sync with the network, unless dedicated nodes magically appear at the same rate users do
  96 2014-12-28 00:50:49 <sipa> do you have some numbers that show this?
  97 2014-12-28 00:51:49 <gmaxwell> sibiria: static overhead increases dramatically with higher fanout levels. (because you have more data crossing in flight)
  98 2014-12-28 00:53:36 <sibiria> the chance is obvious on its own, but no numbers right now, no. when i went to test this on the bitcoin network with its longer block target i manually checked transactions and block updates against the largest btc hub i know (blockchain.info). the most i noticed on a fresh restart (no cached peers) of bitcoind was close to 40 seconds delay
  99 2014-12-28 00:53:58 <sipa> heh
 100 2014-12-28 00:53:58 <sibiria> usually pretty much instantaneous
 101 2014-12-28 00:54:06 <sipa> please, don't base any research on blockchain.info
 102 2014-12-28 00:54:37 <sibiria> despite how burdened it is, it's a decent metric for block propagation considering the amount of nodes it is hooked up to
 103 2014-12-28 00:54:40 <sipa> they don't run standard software, they have returned totally bogus data in the past, and generally provide misinformed data
 104 2014-12-28 00:55:13 <sibiria> the point remains: i measured a 40 second delay in getting a block compared to even the wonky, dodgy blockchain.info
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 106 2014-12-28 00:55:30 <sibiria> if i had thrown out 12 or 16 outgoing connections, the risk of hitting burdened nodes would have decreased
 107 2014-12-28 00:55:42 <phantomcircuit> sibiria, they've actually partitioned themselves from the rest of the network a number of times in the past
 108 2014-12-28 00:56:07 <sipa> you say 'decreased' and i don't disagree
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 110 2014-12-28 00:56:52 <sipa> but without numbers there is no way to tell whether this is a reasonable thing to do, compared the pretty huge extra cost (in terms of bandwidth and cpu, and even slower relay because of more messages being processed all the time)
 111 2014-12-28 00:56:52 <sibiria> anyway, it is no criticism, just wondering if this had been brought up
 112 2014-12-28 00:57:06 <sibiria> sipa: yes but this is up to the user
 113 2014-12-28 00:57:12 <sibiria> the default of 8 outgoing connections is perfectly fine
 114 2014-12-28 00:57:18 <sibiria> but the user could be allowed to tune this
 115 2014-12-28 00:57:24 <sipa> understand that several people here have seen bitcoin go through the time when bitcoin ran out of connectable peers
 116 2014-12-28 00:57:29 <sibiria> there is after all a max connections setting already, at 125 or 150 or however much
 117 2014-12-28 00:57:37 <sipa> if you allow the user to tune this, they'll all set it to the maximum
 118 2014-12-28 00:57:45 <sibiria> why would they?
 119 2014-12-28 00:57:52 <sipa> because more connections is better right?
 120 2014-12-28 00:58:00 <gmaxwell> sibiria: it's important that they do not, in fact, because the setting is subtle and easily misunderstood, and many users setting it high would be _greatly_ damanging to the network.
 121 2014-12-28 00:58:04 <sipa> (i'm being sarcastic, it's generally worse - even for just them)
 122 2014-12-28 00:58:06 <sibiria> with that narrow logic, all users will be setting maxconnections to way beyond the default as well
 123 2014-12-28 00:58:09 <sibiria> yet, they aren't
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 125 2014-12-28 00:58:43 <sibiria> there is something to be considered from the choice of having a maxconnections value defaulting to 125
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 128 2014-12-28 00:58:47 <dgenr8> sibiria: http://bitcoinstats.com/network/propagation/ (cdecker)
 129 2014-12-28 00:58:59 <sibiria> either you assume the network will never face this, or you assume no one knows what the setting is or how to increase it
 130 2014-12-28 00:59:14 <sibiria> dgenr8: ah, thanks man
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 132 2014-12-28 00:59:27 <sipa> well it results from local resources... extra connections take extra CPU and RAM
 133 2014-12-28 00:59:44 <gmaxwell> an example of that misunderstanding "How does one attain 1,000+ connections" ... "Why?! Why not should be the real question! If you must know, I want to have the most verified blockchain in the world." http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8109/how-does-one-attain-1-000-connections-like-blockchain-info
 134 2014-12-28 01:00:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: heh, was searching for that exact same question :)
 135 2014-12-28 01:00:16 <sibiria> if we allow a node to accept 125 connections in total (by default; still possible to increase), then we have already graced them with this potential burden
 136 2014-12-28 01:00:32 <sibiria> each node is by its own already protected by this number, decided by developers
 137 2014-12-28 01:00:38 <sipa> fair enough, i agree
 138 2014-12-28 01:00:45 <gmaxwell> I don't agree.
 139 2014-12-28 01:00:49 <dgenr8> there may be "slow nodes" and "fast nodes" but likely at least as much variability comes from where the inventory is introduced, and random effects
 140 2014-12-28 01:00:56 <sipa> though most end users don't end up with many connections, due to being badly reachable
 141 2014-12-28 01:00:57 bit2017 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 142 2014-12-28 01:00:58 <gmaxwell> It's not simply about protecting the node of that burden, it's about protecting the network.
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 144 2014-12-28 01:01:11 <sibiria> sipa: that is one of my points
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 146 2014-12-28 01:01:36 <sibiria> gmaxwell: if you want to protect the network with this logic, you need to also lower the default of maxconnections, as well as prevent the user from increasing it
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 149 2014-12-28 01:01:49 <gmaxwell> Unbounded fanout degree increases overhead. If the degree was unbounded the cost of a new message in the network is quadratic in the number of participants instead of linear (with a bounded degree).
 150 2014-12-28 01:01:54 <sipa> sibiria: maxconnections only protects the local user's node
 151 2014-12-28 01:02:09 <sibiria> sipa: of course
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 153 2014-12-28 01:02:15 <gmaxwell> sibiria: That isn't the case.
 154 2014-12-28 01:02:17 <sipa> sibiria: more total connections on the network takes up available connection slots, which is for network protection
 155 2014-12-28 01:03:22 <sibiria> it's not about the maxconnections default, or the fact that the user may tune it indefinitely
 156 2014-12-28 01:03:34 <gmaxwell> in any case, it seems you have done little research and no measurement; and you're taking your narroly formed opinions as axioms. This isn't helpful.
 157 2014-12-28 01:03:56 <sibiria> the "research" is from practical testing
 158 2014-12-28 01:03:57 <gmaxwell> The maximum inbound socket does not have anything to do with the _outbound_ degree of nodes in the network.
 159 2014-12-28 01:04:06 <sibiria> i know that
 160 2014-12-28 01:04:11 <sipa> sibiria: if you've only tested again blockchain.info, sorry, repeatr
 161 2014-12-28 01:04:18 <sipa> that's not representative of the network
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 163 2014-12-28 01:04:47 <gmaxwell> It wasn't clear precisely what your test was, other than it involved blockchain.info.
 164 2014-12-28 01:05:03 <sibiria> i think i explained it pretty well above
 165 2014-12-28 01:05:16 <dgenr8> for that matter cdecker's methodology is not that transparent either
 166 2014-12-28 01:05:31 <sibiria> delete peer cache, start bitcoind with -blocknotify up to check block arrival
 167 2014-12-28 01:05:38 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: it's pretty transpartent, I mean he wrote a fucking academic paper on it.
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 169 2014-12-28 01:05:58 <sibiria> see how much longer it may take for me to get a block with only 8 outgoing connections compared to another known large hub (blockchain.info was my choice)
 170 2014-12-28 01:05:58 <gmaxwell> sibiria: "delete peer cache"?
 171 2014-12-28 01:06:14 <sibiria> at most, i measured 40 seconds later for a block to show at my end than blockchain.info
 172 2014-12-28 01:06:59 <sibiria> i am but a poor plebeian, so i had no BTC to test for tx relaying as well - thankfully block relays are free ;P
 173 2014-12-28 01:07:00 <dgenr8> well that sure demands I take another look
 174 2014-12-28 01:07:02 <gmaxwell> sibiria: How did you measure this difference?
 175 2014-12-28 01:07:27 <gmaxwell> e.g. how did you determine when the two times occured? (what was the clock)
 176 2014-12-28 01:07:53 <sibiria> gmaxwell: on my end timestamping from the script i call with -blocknotify, on blockchain.info's end just visually by keeping an eye
 177 2014-12-28 01:08:02 <gmaxwell> Also, why do you consider 40 seconds concerning? (though indeed it's high... part of it would be that you would have a cold cache, block notify fires only after you've verified the block which is going to take several seconds because of your cold cache)
 178 2014-12-28 01:08:14 <sibiria> it's high but no, not concering
 179 2014-12-28 01:08:22 <sibiria> especially not with 10 minutes being the block timer
 180 2014-12-28 01:08:27 <gmaxwell> sibiria: oh come on "by vistually keeping an eye" you made a statistically relevant measurment of 40 seconds?
 181 2014-12-28 01:08:55 <sibiria> gmaxwell: are you doubting an actual block popping up on blockchain.info as an erroneous block?
 182 2014-12-28 01:09:27 <gmaxwell> sibiria: Can't parse that statement.
 183 2014-12-28 01:09:41 <sibiria> if i see 336xxx popping up there we can safely assume block 336xxx was indeed added to the chain
 184 2014-12-28 01:09:52 <sibiria> sure, some fluke may occur, but one did not
 185 2014-12-28 01:10:33 <sibiria> my point is... as the btc network explodes in size, these 40 seconds may one day be 1 minute, or one and a half minute
 186 2014-12-28 01:10:46 <sibiria> this could be a problem for services that do not listen for incoming connections
 187 2014-12-28 01:10:58 <sibiria> making just outgoing connections for getting tx and block relays
 188 2014-12-28 01:11:13 <gmaxwell> May be a different block; but thats besides the point. I'm doubting the number of significant figures of an measurement by eyeball for an event that happens once every 10 minutes on average.
 189 2014-12-28 01:11:16 <sibiria> i get that 10 minutes is a pretty good grace period against a measure mere 40 seconds, but...
 190 2014-12-28 01:11:50 <gmaxwell> sibiria: we haven't seen any scale dependance on that number over time.
 191 2014-12-28 01:12:09 <sibiria> gmaxwell: why doubt it? a legit block is added to the chain, it appears on bc.info and i don't get the block for another 40 seconds on my end. i know the block was added, but did not propagate to me until 40s later
 192 2014-12-28 01:12:11 <gmaxwell> And we wouldn't expect it to have one, so long as the outdegree is bounded.
 193 2014-12-28 01:12:48 <sibiria> the chance of blockchain.info fetching blocks from the future seem slim to me
 194 2014-12-28 01:13:04 <gmaxwell> sibiria: because you're telling me that you say around for an expected 10 minutes (and potentially an hour), waiting for a webpage to twitch and then {somehow} accurately measured the difference to a blocknotify running.
 195 2014-12-28 01:13:38 <gmaxwell> what did your blocknotify do?
 196 2014-12-28 01:14:05 <sibiria> unix timestamp together with block height, so i know exactly when it arrives at my end
 197 2014-12-28 01:14:12 <sibiria> the important bit here is that it was AT LEAST 40 seconds between
 198 2014-12-28 01:14:22 <sibiria> for all we know, bc.info may infact have received that block much earlier
 199 2014-12-28 01:14:46 <gmaxwell> for all we know, even if your measurement was right it only happened once.
 200 2014-12-28 01:15:01 <sibiria> i simply did a date +%s on the terminal when i saw blocks popping up on bc.info
 201 2014-12-28 01:15:14 <sibiria> yeah that 40s was the worst case
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 203 2014-12-28 01:15:19 <sibiria> as said, usually within seconds
 204 2014-12-28 01:15:26 <gmaxwell> okay, can you please pastebin your recorded timestamps for the blocks?
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 206 2014-12-28 01:15:37 <sibiria> but point remains: these 40s may one day be 1 minute, 1.5 minutes...
 207 2014-12-28 01:16:02 <sibiria> by letting the user increase max outgoing conns a little bit, the chance of hitting unburdened nodes decreases
 208 2014-12-28 01:16:09 <sibiria> 8 is a sane default
 209 2014-12-28 01:16:12 <sibiria> wouldn't dream of altering that
 210 2014-12-28 01:16:22 <gmaxwell> sibiria: Please post your timestamps.
 211 2014-12-28 01:16:44 <sibiria> gmaxwell: you would have to wait until i am back home again
 212 2014-12-28 01:16:51 <gmaxwell> right.
 213 2014-12-28 01:17:11 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: raw data is one of the things cdecker hasn't shared.  the other thing was that is sounds like he only measured from one position in the network
 214 2014-12-28 01:17:28 <sibiria> that was a follow-up question i had earlier
 215 2014-12-28 01:17:34 <sibiria> regarding how many points he measured from
 216 2014-12-28 01:17:42 <gmaxwell> sibiria: in any case, we've observed no increase in the propagation time related to node counts going up and down; we wouldn't expect there to be generally. And increasing the outdegree increases burden on the network (more overhead), so we'd actually expect it to go up.
 217 2014-12-28 01:17:45 <sibiria> it stands out clearly that these 40s is a freak case of some sort
 218 2014-12-28 01:17:52 <sibiria> but it's real, and it can happen
 219 2014-12-28 01:18:23 <sibiria> gmaxwell: but you have already reserved and gifted this burden and overhead, by setting a maxconnections value that is quite high
 220 2014-12-28 01:18:25 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: It's measured by observing invs from all reachable nodes, his position is only relevant at the scale of variance in internet latencies.
 221 2014-12-28 01:18:30 <sibiria> this should be in your calculations already
 222 2014-12-28 01:18:42 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I'd like to see your data.
 223 2014-12-28 01:18:45 <sibiria> maxconnections is your blessed grace value
 224 2014-12-28 01:18:56 <sibiria> gmaxwell: yeah you can have it later
 225 2014-12-28 01:19:00 <dgenr8> yeah i think it would be better if he measured from a few different locations at least
 226 2014-12-28 01:19:09 <sibiria> yes, obviously
 227 2014-12-28 01:19:11 <sibiria> in my case as well
 228 2014-12-28 01:19:22 <sibiria> a sample of one isn't exactly a clever metric
 229 2014-12-28 01:19:22 <sibiria> :D
 230 2014-12-28 01:19:26 <sibiria> yet... it's there, it happened
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 233 2014-12-28 01:19:48 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I don't see why thats terribly interesting.
 234 2014-12-28 01:20:07 <sibiria> if he measures at one point it only speaks about that one point's connectivity
 235 2014-12-28 01:20:22 <sibiria> 500th percentile in 5 sec - great for that point
 236 2014-12-28 01:20:36 <dgenr8> i would like to quantify my confidence in a model build from the raw data
 237 2014-12-28 01:20:39 <sibiria> if that one point is to be put on a pillar, so could my nutty case of 40s delay for a block
 238 2014-12-28 01:20:40 <dgenr8> built
 239 2014-12-28 01:21:21 <gmaxwell> sibiria: but it isn't one point. He's measuring every reachable node. ("all" points) plus some additional noise that should have variance under 100ms normally.
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 241 2014-12-28 01:21:48 <sibiria> my question isn't a case for improving the network as a whole. it's about services that do not accept incoming nodes, having to rely on the 8 nodes they connect to being timely
 242 2014-12-28 01:22:15 <gmaxwell> welp my three nodes all beat bc.i to 336226
 243 2014-12-28 01:22:27 <gmaxwell> actually bc.i is still showing 336225 now.
 244 2014-12-28 01:22:43 <gmaxwell> there it goes.
 245 2014-12-28 01:22:49 <sibiria> that's not so interesting as the fact that bc.info beat another point by 40 seconds...
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 247 2014-12-28 01:23:07 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I suspect your measurement was flawed. Bc.i is normally very slow.
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 249 2014-12-28 01:23:36 <sibiria> yeah that adds to how bad this case was, considering how burdened they are
 250 2014-12-28 01:23:39 <dgenr8> cdecker "normalizes" the times by subtracting the shortest time from all the others.  there are a couple gotchas there.  the whole set depends on where his closest node is, in addition to the aforementioned dependence on his ISP
 251 2014-12-28 01:24:15 <dgenr8> and it's not an unbiased estimate of the actual time, I couldn't tell if he makes a further adjustment
 252 2014-12-28 01:24:17 <sibiria> i have no reason to suspect that date(1) flukes on my system, nor that bitcoind and the -blocknotify function does
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 254 2014-12-28 01:24:48 <sibiria> anyway, thanks for the discussion
 255 2014-12-28 01:24:55 <sibiria> gmaxwell: i'll get back to you with the timestamps
 256 2014-12-28 01:24:58 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I suggest you put a wget of https://blockchain.info/q/latesthash >> $1  in your notify and measure some more.
 257 2014-12-28 01:25:13 <sibiria> yeah i just might measure more
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 260 2014-12-28 01:25:22 <sibiria> btc isn't my main block chain, but it's an interesting study nevertheless :)
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 262 2014-12-28 01:25:29 <sibiria> see you around
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 265 2014-12-28 01:25:48 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: yes, sure, I have no doubt that the results are biased at a level of a 100ms or so. but the measurements are of several seconds to tens of seconds.
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 267 2014-12-28 01:26:24 <dgenr8> i'm weird and focus more on the tx data
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 269 2014-12-28 01:33:11 <gmaxwell> ah, well indeed that going to be corrupted by observational delays.
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 274 2014-12-28 01:44:34 <gmaxwell> and, again, my nodes beat bc.i's webui on 336228.
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 304 2014-12-28 02:22:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: IMO #5542 should be considered for 0.10
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 306 2014-12-28 02:23:47 <Luke-Jr> #5499 as well
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 311 2014-12-28 02:50:34 <proserpine-> siberia: setting maxconnections above 100 or increasing outbound connections to match severely degrades tx/block propagation as you have to broadcast all incoming tx/blocks to all connected peers, resulting in tons of invs and lots of wasted b/w
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 313 2014-12-28 02:51:14 <proserpine-> besides, over 870 connections is unattainable on bitcoin core in its current state due to select() limitation
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 315 2014-12-28 02:52:25 <proserpine-> but again, there is absolutely no reason to go past 100 - just for testing/fun ive managed 6000+ connections on bitcoin core (w/ epoll) for a short while
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 409 2014-12-28 08:14:03 <michagogo> 3:25:39 <gmaxwell> sibiria: I suggest you put a wget of https://blockchain.info/q/latesthash >> $1  in your notify and measure some more.
 410 2014-12-28 08:14:17 <michagogo> I think curl might be the better tool in this case?
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 414 2014-12-28 08:18:08 <gmaxwell> michagogo: both can do the same.
 415 2014-12-28 08:18:43 <michagogo> gmaxwell: yeah, but wget requires a switch and argument
 416 2014-12-28 08:18:54 <michagogo> Curl has that as the default behavior
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 419 2014-12-28 08:22:53 <michagogo> And after all, The Unix Way is to use as few keystrokes as possible :P
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 426 2014-12-28 08:53:49 <wumpus> I've never understood curl vs wget either, they seem to do the same but are used slightly differently
 427 2014-12-28 08:54:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, no problem with that, although cfields will have to look at #5542
 428 2014-12-28 08:55:07 <Luke-Jr> curl comes in a library form :p
 429 2014-12-28 08:58:55 <midnightmagic> curl is better except it doesn't (didn't?) know how to change the written-to-filename to the correct value after a redirect.
 430 2014-12-28 08:59:10 <midnightmagic> plus I know the curl primary author. :) he's awesome.
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 433 2014-12-28 09:02:19 <michagogo> wumpus: I think wget is really geared towards getting stuff
 434 2014-12-28 09:02:34 <michagogo> Http, FTP, with a lot of options
 435 2014-12-28 09:02:54 <michagogo> It can also do crawling, recursion, etc
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 437 2014-12-28 09:03:22 <michagogo> You can also give it multiple URLs
 438 2014-12-28 09:03:51 <michagogo> Curl, I think, is more geared towards letting you make all kinds of queries, etc
 439 2014-12-28 09:04:39 <michagogo> So the default is to output to stdout, and it has all kinds of options for headers, POST data, all kinds of stuff geared towards that
 440 2014-12-28 09:06:16 <wumpus> michagogo: thanks for the explanation
 441 2014-12-28 09:07:03 <michagogo> wumpus: take it with a grain of salt, though -- that's just my impression from the very limited use (relatively speaking) that I've made of them
 442 2014-12-28 09:07:20 <michagogo> I don't know if that's really the developers' intentions
 443 2014-12-28 09:07:42 <michagogo> And they can probably both do a lot more than I don't know about
 444 2014-12-28 09:08:40 <wumpus> michagogo: looks like two swiss army knifes that accrued every bit of functionality over time, but there are still some differences on the lower level, one has the bottle opener where the other has the toothpick :)
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 451 2014-12-28 09:33:05 <CodeShark> yes, michagogo - I use wget to download files and curl to make data queries (generally speaking)
 452 2014-12-28 09:33:49 cbeams has joined
 453 2014-12-28 09:34:09 <michagogo> ;;Google curl vs wget
 454 2014-12-28 09:34:10 <gribble> curl vs Wget: <http://daniel.haxx.se/docs/curl-vs-wget.html>; cURL - Comparison Table: <http://curl.haxx.se/docs/comparison-table.html>; linux - What is better, curl or wget? - Stack Overflow: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/636339/what-is-better-curl-or-wget>
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 456 2014-12-28 09:35:28 <CodeShark> I use both - the nice thing is you don't have to pick one over the other :)
 457 2014-12-28 09:37:48 <CodeShark> wumpus: the http protocol itself is like a swiss army knife originally designed to serve HTML documents from servers that accrued a bunch of additional uses over time...to the point where it became used for things where it wasn't particularly a good solution at all
 458 2014-12-28 09:38:13 <michagogo> CodeShark: like our RPC? :P
 459 2014-12-28 09:38:23 <CodeShark> ;)
 460 2014-12-28 09:40:15 <wumpus> CodeShark: indeed, nuff said
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 469 2014-12-28 09:48:31 <gmaxwell> so from that earlier diversion any my curl collection, my ordinary, non-sepcial 8 connection node has a block before bc.i's https interface (with several second connection overhead) 76.4% of the time over the last 68 blocks.
 470 2014-12-28 09:49:39 * gmaxwell stops the data collection
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 472 2014-12-28 09:52:15 <CodeShark> several second connection overhead?
 473 2014-12-28 09:52:21 <CodeShark> as in every single HTTP request takes seconds?
 474 2014-12-28 09:52:40 <CodeShark> or over the 68 blocks total?
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 477 2014-12-28 09:55:35 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: each connection seems to take well lemme time it. 1.530 seconds.
 478 2014-12-28 09:55:46 <gmaxwell> 1.579.. yea, so about a second and a half.
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 481 2014-12-28 09:59:03 <CodeShark> how much of that is due to SSL?
 482 2014-12-28 09:59:44 <CodeShark> a bunch is just the handshake
 483 2014-12-28 10:00:41 <CodeShark> but the majority is the web server itself
 484 2014-12-28 10:00:50 <CodeShark> just tried doing a few requests
 485 2014-12-28 10:01:42 <CodeShark> looks like it goes through a cloudflare layer
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 490 2014-12-28 10:08:38 <ThomasZ> hey all, I just spend an hour in QtLinguist fixing bugs in the NL translations, I can make a merge request; which branch should this be for?
 491 2014-12-28 10:09:41 <wumpus> ThomasZ: you're supposed to make translation changes in transifex :/ we can't directly accept pulls for that as they'd conflict with the exports from transifex 
 492 2014-12-28 10:10:14 <ThomasZ> transifex?  Interesting; Qt has a fully functional translation application.
 493 2014-12-28 10:10:18 <ThomasZ> what is transifex?
 494 2014-12-28 10:10:31 <wumpus> see e.g. 'Translations' in the README.md
 495 2014-12-28 10:10:41 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: crap. Super thanks for working on translations! I hope you're not put off by having to route them another way.
 496 2014-12-28 10:10:58 <wumpus> it's an online collaborative translations editing environment
 497 2014-12-28 10:11:26 <ThomasZ> I'm just confused why you would not use the solution that Qt provides, which is industry strength...
 498 2014-12-28 10:11:45 <wumpus> it *is* possible to upload a manually edited dump back to them, but it messes up metadata and such (who edited what message, whether the message has been checked, etc)
 499 2014-12-28 10:12:31 <wumpus> because filling in online forms is easier for most people, and this provides a level of cross-checking if a language community is somewhat organized
 500 2014-12-28 10:12:31 <ThomasZ> you translate in a browser?
 501 2014-12-28 10:13:17 <ThomasZ> im sorry, but that explains the crappyness of the translations. Not being able to try out your translations with a simple recompile is very limiting.
 502 2014-12-28 10:13:31 <wumpus> sure you can try it out that way
 503 2014-12-28 10:13:37 <wumpus> you just can't submit it that way
 504 2014-12-28 10:14:07 <wumpus> most language editors can't do a recompile, never mind a simple one
 505 2014-12-28 10:14:11 <ThomasZ> I've seen completely out of scope translations. Like "send addresses" -> "sending to addresses" kind of mixup.
 506 2014-12-28 10:14:34 <ThomasZ> never mind that the 'file menu has 3 duplicate shortcuts (&)
 507 2014-12-28 10:15:21 <wumpus> anyhow I don't feel like arguing this, there's some stupid issue every day that people want to argue, if you want to contribute to our project you'll have to do at least some things in our way
 508 2014-12-28 10:16:29 <ThomasZ> I'm not really into arguing either. Just pointing out that the quality of translatons is low and for a very identifyable reason.  Your choice if you want to ignore it.
 509 2014-12-28 10:17:48 <wumpus> transifex is used by a *lot* of projects, both commercial and open source, so I doubht the issue is with the site
 510 2014-12-28 10:18:45 <sipa> when we started using transifex there were translation for bitcoind too (or are there still?), so using Qt's tools would have constrained the scope
 511 2014-12-28 10:19:01 <wumpus> transifex still uses qt's tools in their backend
 512 2014-12-28 10:19:12 <wumpus> there's no difference in result, just a difference in tool used for editing
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 514 2014-12-28 10:19:52 <sipa> ThomasZ: anyway, i hope you feel like continuing to contribute
 515 2014-12-28 10:20:00 <sipa> it's very welcome
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 517 2014-12-28 10:20:13 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: I think we just want to accomidate as many translators as possible. (hopefully good ones, but for many languages good is too much to ask for)
 518 2014-12-28 10:21:18 <sipa> to be honest... i'm not sure i've ever in the last 10 years set my system language to anything but english
 519 2014-12-28 10:21:22 <ThomasZ> I'm trying to find out if transifex shows contexts like linguist does.
 520 2014-12-28 10:22:06 <ThomasZ> sipa: sure, I don't run it in anything other than eng either ;)
 521 2014-12-28 10:22:39 <sipa> a lot of dutch speakers (i'm flemish) are pretty good at english, so it's perhaps not a very interesting thing to work on
 522 2014-12-28 10:22:51 <sipa> that could explain the low quality too
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 524 2014-12-28 10:23:28 <ThomasZ> thats debatable, depends highly on age etc.
 525 2014-12-28 10:23:33 <sipa> agree
 526 2014-12-28 10:23:44 <ThomasZ> my parents would no be able to handle an english app
 527 2014-12-28 10:24:00 <sipa> but would they run bitcoin core? :)
 528 2014-12-28 10:24:37 <ThomasZ> I forbid them to run anything java or ruby based ;)
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 530 2014-12-28 10:28:02 gambyte has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 531 2014-12-28 10:28:07 <ThomasZ> anyway; if someone is interested; here is the commit. https://github.com/zander/bitcoin/commit/d341e8c692ee6c8fa30f34e8e4a6cee49082c906
 532 2014-12-28 10:29:08 <michagogo> ThomasZ: what's wrong with Java and Ruby?
 533 2014-12-28 10:29:19 <ThomasZ> michagogo: trojans
 534 2014-12-28 10:29:44 <michagogo> Ruby specifically?
 535 2014-12-28 10:29:57 * michagogo is not familiar with such a phenomenon
 536 2014-12-28 10:30:17 <ThomasZ> not sure if there is a bitcoin client in ruby, so not realy relevant here
 537 2014-12-28 10:30:26 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 538 2014-12-28 10:34:42 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: maybe its an idea to create a zip file with the windows exe of Linquist (plus dlls), the Qt translation tool. Then all you need is a way to download and upload the relevant .ts files.
 539 2014-12-28 10:39:05 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: part of it is attracting the existing community of people who like to translate and whom aren't interested in bitcoin that much specifically (of course, those are probably lower quality translators: but perhaps they could be improved by giving them specific guidance)
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 542 2014-12-28 10:42:03 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: right, that explains why "fee" was translated as it was.  If translated back into english it would be "cost". Which is confusing at best.
 543 2014-12-28 10:42:50 <gmaxwell> hahah
 544 2014-12-28 10:42:52 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: is there a mailinglist they subscribe to?
 545 2014-12-28 10:43:23 <gmaxwell> I'm translation ignorant. Perhaps wumpus knows.
 546 2014-12-28 10:43:33 hashtag_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 547 2014-12-28 10:45:23 <sipa> i do remember at some point that from the top or ps manpage in manpages-nl, there was a sentence "Count dead children in sum with parents" and something about a "decaying average"
 548 2014-12-28 10:45:27 <sipa> which were... well, translated very literally
 549 2014-12-28 10:46:37 <Diablo-D3> wow
 550 2014-12-28 10:46:38 <Diablo-D3> thats dark
 551 2014-12-28 10:46:51 <wumpus> ThomasZ: yes, there is a translations mailing list
 552 2014-12-28 10:46:59 <sipa> orly?
 553 2014-12-28 10:47:09 <wumpus> ThomasZ: it's also mentioned in the README.md 
 554 2014-12-28 10:47:22 <ThomasZ> wumpus: there was no mailinglist there, just a google group.
 555 2014-12-28 10:47:33 <ThomasZ> mostly empty
 556 2014-12-28 10:47:36 <wumpus> under, surprisingly, "Translations". incidentally there's also translation-process.md
 557 2014-12-28 10:47:50 <sipa> "Tel dode kinderen bij ouders" en "wegrottend gemiddelde"
 558 2014-12-28 10:48:06 <wumpus> ThomasZ: a google group is effectively a mailing list
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 562 2014-12-28 10:48:50 <ThomasZ> wumpus: how do I use it from my email application?
 563 2014-12-28 10:48:54 <wumpus> and yes, it's pretty empty, we've tried to get translators more involved and for some languages that has been a success (ie German w/ Diapolo) but it remains a scarce area
 564 2014-12-28 10:49:00 <wumpus> ThomasZ: I have no clue, I'm also not your helpdesk.
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 566 2014-12-28 10:49:40 <sipa> you subscribe to it; i'm sure you can subscribe to a google group even without a gmail address
 567 2014-12-28 10:50:11 <ThomasZ> wumpus: in that case; scroll back for the commit link I posted and feel free to somehow get them into the translation stuff you guys use
 568 2014-12-28 10:50:17 <wumpus> ThomasZ: anyhow if it makes you less pissed off I can try to import your .nl translation file into transifex
 569 2014-12-28 10:50:44 <ThomasZ> I am not pissed off.
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 573 2014-12-28 10:52:28 <wumpus> sipa: yes, that's one reason I'm trying to keep very technical/specific stuff out of the translation messages, most people don't know what it means or how to translate it
 574 2014-12-28 10:53:37 <wumpus> they could of course just leave it as-is in that case, but that's not what happens in practice
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 576 2014-12-28 10:55:03 <wumpus> but there's still some madness in there, ie at some point we translated specific block validation error messages
 577 2014-12-28 10:55:30 <gmaxwell> I really think we shouldn't translate errors. Errors are for searching.
 578 2014-12-28 10:55:31 <wumpus> also we translate --help option descriptions, I'm not sure they'll do a good job on that
 579 2014-12-28 10:55:59 <wumpus> gmaxwell: apart from some generic errors in the UI that's the case now AFAIK
 580 2014-12-28 10:55:59 <gmaxwell> Unless they're telling people to do something particular, an error message isn't really for user reading much of the time.
 581 2014-12-28 10:56:05 <gmaxwell> okay cool.
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 585 2014-12-28 10:58:35 <sipa> if i look at my parents, and they complain about something not working, they say "A window appeared and i had to click it away" - "What did it say?" - "Eh no idea, something about an error"
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 587 2014-12-28 10:59:16 <gmaxwell> dunno about you, but I've done that myself, usually followed by "Crap! what did that say?!"
 588 2014-12-28 10:59:16 <sipa> i'm pretty convinced that except the small group of people who actually knows how things work under the hood, the actual error message is meaningless
 589 2014-12-28 10:59:39 <sipa> sure, but at least i blame myself for not looking
 590 2014-12-28 10:59:54 <sipa> for them, the idea of actually looking at the text and searching for it seems alien
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 592 2014-12-28 11:00:51 <sipa> (part of this imho is due to the practice of modal windows interrupting an application directly, as they stop your normal workflow, it really feels like something you "have to click away" rather than something trying to tell you something)
 593 2014-12-28 11:01:01 <gmaxwell> we're far too chatty with errors, which makes our own logs much less useful too, no point in googling most of what it calls errors.
 594 2014-12-28 11:01:04 <ThomasZ> I've seen a usability talk which was awesom on this topic;  it turned the application into a buddy. So if something went wrong (like your interent connectivity) it would be like "Oh, dear, the internets failed on us, I can try again later :("
 595 2014-12-28 11:01:28 <sipa> "The tubes are clogged"
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 597 2014-12-28 11:01:53 <ThomasZ> the point is that it is your buddy, and you both are stuck with the error, it tries to help you. Its your friend.
 598 2014-12-28 11:02:39 <ThomasZ> whereas most apps are like "you did something unforgivable, haha! I'm telling everyone!"
 599 2014-12-28 11:02:45 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: I imagine its a bit annoying when it's wrong.  like you intentionally disconnect the internet to save bandwidth and it says "Oh, dear, the internets failed on us, I can try again later :(" and you're thinking "no you idiot, I turned it off!" but it has no ears. :)
 600 2014-12-28 11:03:12 <ThomasZ> most mobiles can make that distinction, though ;)
 601 2014-12-28 11:06:46 <gwillen> they make it incredibly badly and should usually be shot for trying
 602 2014-12-28 11:06:59 <gwillen> I thank god that google finally got rid of that feature in some recent version of android
 603 2014-12-28 11:07:15 <gwillen> there was a version window during which, if the system didn't think it could get internet, ain't nobody could get internet, even if the actual connection was fine
 604 2014-12-28 11:07:36 <wumpus> application trying to be a buddy makes me think of MS's clippy :) 'hey, I see you're trying to... ' WRAAA
 605 2014-12-28 11:07:53 <gwillen> (it still shows the connection icon as grey instead of blue, if it thinks there's no connectivity; but it no longer actively interferes with apps using the connection anyway)
 606 2014-12-28 11:08:24 <gmaxwell> I think the important lesson is that users sometimes find overly "factual" errors as accusatory.
 607 2014-12-28 11:08:47 <gwillen> well, that's fair, and I'm fine with weasel-wording errors to make the user feel better
 608 2014-12-28 11:09:08 <gwillen> as long as details are available on request, and the app doesn't try to _do_ anything clever
 609 2014-12-28 11:09:14 <sipa> "Cannot find printer" - "But I'm holding the printer right in front of the computer screen! How can it not find it? Silly computer"
 610 2014-12-28 11:09:27 <wumpus> hahaha
 611 2014-12-28 11:09:52 <gmaxwell> "it's dangling right here! I'm holding the connectors up to the red eye thing! why can't you see it?"
 612 2014-12-28 11:09:52 <sipa> (this was a joke from a popular but way-too-long-running flemish tv show)
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 614 2014-12-28 11:10:34 <gwillen> I think the opposite extreme is well represented in http://xkcd.com/416/ ;-)
 615 2014-12-28 11:10:51 <sipa> let me guess
 616 2014-12-28 11:11:05 <ThomasZ> gwillen: :D
 617 2014-12-28 11:11:10 <sipa> yup, i guessed right
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 619 2014-12-28 11:12:08 <gmaxwell> WPA took off before WEP cracking (even with the awesome broadcast replay attacks) got fast enough to realistically make it a part of network autoconfig.
 620 2014-12-28 11:12:11 <gmaxwell> Alas.
 621 2014-12-28 11:13:12 <sipa> it could be made part of a reusable proof-of-work system otherwise to pay for wifi access
 622 2014-12-28 11:13:49 <ThomasZ> haha, proof of work is to bruteforce the WPA password?
 623 2014-12-28 11:14:07 <sipa> no, crack the WEP access
 624 2014-12-28 11:14:33 <gmaxwell> unfortauntely the replay attacks are pretty intrusive to users of the network.
 625 2014-12-28 11:15:17 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it angers me that deauthentication packets are spoofable on an encrypted network by a non-associated user
 626 2014-12-28 11:15:20 <gwillen> there was no need for that to be true
 627 2014-12-28 11:15:52 <gwillen> (it angers me because of the marriott thing that's currently before the FCC, which I assume you've seen)
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 630 2014-12-28 11:19:12 <gmaxwell> gwillen: perhaps you might like the debate in the IETF tcp increased security working group TCPCRYPT where some people don't want RST to be authenticated.
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 633 2014-12-28 11:19:59 <robbak> I saw some chatter about this, but not what is causing it: configure: WARNING: no configuration information is in src/secp256k1
 634 2014-12-28 11:20:04 <gwillen> gmaxwell: perhaps I might think those people are morons who are doomed to repeat history either because they don't understand it, or (more sinisterly) because they approve of it
 635 2014-12-28 11:20:13 <Diablo-D3> gwillen: :D
 636 2014-12-28 11:20:34 <gmaxwell> gwillen: well it's never simple.
 637 2014-12-28 11:20:34 <Diablo-D3> <gwbush> that hitler guy, yeah, he was pretty cool *thumbs up*
 638 2014-12-28 11:20:50 <Diablo-D3> (and now that we have the hitler thing out of the way...)
 639 2014-12-28 11:21:42 <gmaxwell> robbak: do you have any reason to believe it isn't a harmless side effect of nested autoconf?
 640 2014-12-28 11:22:07 <Diablo-D3> >nested autoconf
 641 2014-12-28 11:22:09 <Diablo-D3> >harmless
 642 2014-12-28 11:22:19 <robbak> gmaxwell: It isn't harmless, because it leads to  "*** No rule to make target 'libsecp256k1.la'.  Stop."
 643 2014-12-28 11:22:21 <Diablo-D3> you're really going with that?
 644 2014-12-28 11:22:24 <wumpus> ok, pushed ThomasZ's translation to transifex, then did a pull of translations to the 0.10 branch
 645 2014-12-28 11:22:30 <wumpus> robbak: ./autogen.sh ?
 646 2014-12-28 11:24:05 <wumpus> either that or clean out your tree e.g. clean -f -x -d and start over
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 648 2014-12-28 11:24:58 <wumpus> s/clean/git clean/
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 650 2014-12-28 11:25:19 <wumpus> but just rerunning autogen and configure should work
 651 2014-12-28 11:25:38 <robbak> wumpus: I'm building from a tarball. So, it's because I am missing some part of autotools.
 652 2014-12-28 11:26:17 <wumpus> robbak: possible, though in principle gitian releases are build from tarballs ("make dist") too so there should be a sanity check on that
 653 2014-12-28 11:26:24 <wumpus> robbak: weird
 654 2014-12-28 11:26:44 <robbak> I'm setting up the freebsd port to get ready for the 10.0 release
 655 2014-12-28 11:28:06 <gmaxwell> robbak: please report any issues so we can fix them in RC instead of carrying patches, if at all possible. (well, sounds like you're doing that, so this request is perhaps redundant; but some packagers seem not to know that we want fixes)
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 657 2014-12-28 11:29:47 <robbak> gmaxwell - Yes, If there are any patches I'll create pull requests for them.
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 660 2014-12-28 11:32:04 <wumpus> it sounds like the inner configure (for secp256k1) is somehow not called, or not present
 661 2014-12-28 11:32:49 <wumpus> usually that happens when someone builds 0.10 in, say, a 0.9 tree, without calling autogen.sh, hence my above suggestion but that'd indeed not help here if the dependent files are not packaged...
 662 2014-12-28 11:32:53 <robbak> wumpus: Yes, I'm not getting a Makefile.in file
 663 2014-12-28 11:42:03 <robbak> ...And autogen.sh does create it. Looks like I've got it now. I needed to add autoreconf.
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 676 2014-12-28 11:55:59 <michagogo> 13:01:48 <ThomasZ> I've seen a usability talk which was awesom on this topic;  it turned the application into a buddy. So if something went wrong (like your interent connectivity) it would be like "Oh, dear, the internets failed on us, I can try again later :("
 677 2014-12-28 11:56:06 <michagogo> Sounds like Windows 8
 678 2014-12-28 11:56:26 <michagogo> IIRC it replaced the BSOD with "Your computer needs to restart. :-("
 679 2014-12-28 11:56:35 <michagogo> 13:26:22 <robbak> wumpus: I'm building from a tarball. So, it's because I am missing some part of autotools.
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 681 2014-12-28 11:56:59 <michagogo> Um, I thought once you have ./configure you don't need autotools?
 682 2014-12-28 11:57:44 <michagogo> (And don't dist tarballs come with configure?)
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 697 2014-12-28 12:21:57 <ThomasZ> michagogo: if you ever used win8 you would not make that connection ;)  Its anything but humane.
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 701 2014-12-28 12:23:14 <robbak> michagogo: I don't know - autoconf is all opaque black boxes to me, and it all smacks of inner platform effect. I *think* that ./configure is written by autotools, and if you aren't building on the same setup, you need to re-run autotools to recreate ./configure. I think.
 702 2014-12-28 12:23:15 <ThomasZ> michagogo: autogen requires the autoconf,  running configure still requires auto* because it takes the .am files and turns them into makefiles.
 703 2014-12-28 12:24:09 <ThomasZ> thats why autoconf and automake are packaged separately
 704 2014-12-28 12:27:03 <hegemoOn> http://paste.netmonk.org/zorimujasi
 705 2014-12-28 12:27:24 <hegemoOn> i got this error for compiling just after a git pull few seconds ago
 706 2014-12-28 12:28:11 <robbak> Anyoong got any ideas why the bundled leveldb hasn't got SIZE_MAX declared for helpers/memenv/memenv.cc?
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 709 2014-12-28 12:28:54 <sipa> robbak: it probably ecpects system headers to define it, but yours don't
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 712 2014-12-28 12:31:10 <michagogo> ThomasZ: wait, really?
 713 2014-12-28 12:31:55 <michagogo> It's all a black box to me, but from conversations I had in here before I gave up trying to understand I was lead to believe that the idea was for ./configure to require almost nothing
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 715 2014-12-28 12:32:24 <ThomasZ> michagogo: it requires quite a lot, actually. Most of it decades old.
 716 2014-12-28 12:32:32 <ThomasZ> libtool is my favorite
 717 2014-12-28 12:32:39 <ThomasZ> well, configure itself doesn't require it.
 718 2014-12-28 12:34:06 <hegemoOn> anyone has this error also ?
 719 2014-12-28 12:34:21 <ThomasZ> hegemoOn: not sure why your system has HAVE_DECL_STRNLEN defined somewhere. Sounds wrong. Easiest fix is to remove those 5 lines from your source file
 720 2014-12-28 12:35:02 <hegemoOn> ok
 721 2014-12-28 12:35:02 <ThomasZ> I'm curious why that code is in bitcoin in the first place.
 722 2014-12-28 12:35:50 <ThomasZ> Pavel Janík wrote that code; he may know
 723 2014-12-28 12:38:22 <sipa> hegemoOn: delete the bitcoin-config.h file and configure again
 724 2014-12-28 12:38:55 <sipa> hegemoOn: ir just git clean -dfx (which resets your working dir to just what is in the repo)
 725 2014-12-28 12:44:41 <gmaxwell> I wish we could get graphs like these http://statoshi.info/#/dashboard/file/default.json (well minus the non-zero orgin graph fraud) in bitcoin-qt.
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 727 2014-12-28 12:48:00 <ThomasZ> gmaxwell: i'm a long time Qt hacker, if you provide the data, I can make those graphs pretty easy
 728 2014-12-28 12:48:54 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: the data is all in bitcoin core already I believe... though no rrd like collection of it, just current values.
 729 2014-12-28 12:51:05 <ThomasZ> is there any chatter about going to Qt5 and QML for the client?
 730 2014-12-28 12:53:23 <sipa> aren't we using qt5 yet?
 731 2014-12-28 12:54:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: you mean as htnl through rest, or in the gui?
 732 2014-12-28 12:54:01 <gmaxwell> I don't know what the plan is there. We support both and I think use QT5 on OSX because it fixed some issues with high dpi hosts (?). As far as using QT5 only, I think we'd be willing to if we had a reason to.
 733 2014-12-28 12:54:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: "I dunno"  being integrated well would be nice.
 734 2014-12-28 12:54:31 <sipa> i somehow think that many bitcoind running people would be interested in such graphs too
 735 2014-12-28 12:55:06 <sipa> and if it can be implemented as serving some static html which fetches stats through rest, the code in core itself would be very minimal
 736 2014-12-28 12:55:42 <ThomasZ> sipa: I think the hard part is figuring out where to store the data
 737 2014-12-28 12:55:53 <sipa> store?
 738 2014-12-28 12:56:28 <gmaxwell> In memory is probably okay, in that gaps during downtime would make it much less interesting.
 739 2014-12-28 12:56:39 <ThomasZ> I assume bitcoind doesnt link to Qt? And so if you want to display the data in bitcoind you need to do something interesting to display it
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 741 2014-12-28 12:57:06 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: sipa was just suggesting using a webbrowser to display it.
 742 2014-12-28 12:57:36 <gmaxwell> This sort of data is not actually all that useful, but I think it makes running the software more interesting. High tech lava lamp.
 743 2014-12-28 12:58:09 <ThomasZ> static html is, well static.
 744 2014-12-28 12:58:54 <gmaxwell> ThomasZ: what I think he's thinking is a 'stack' page that includes javascript that fetches the data from the rest interface.
 745 2014-12-28 12:59:18 <ThomasZ> ok, thats kinda what I meant with the question of where to store the data :)
 746 2014-12-28 12:59:44 <ThomasZ> bitcoind, fetchable via rest. Sounds good
 747 2014-12-28 13:00:22 <ThomasZ> then the Qt client can provide interactive graphics using native rendering code
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 759 2014-12-28 13:16:27 <wumpus> requiring qt5 is not acceptable at this point, still way too many 'stable' linux distros that ship with qt4 only
 760 2014-12-28 13:16:34 <wumpus> though having qt5-only features is perfectly fine
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 763 2014-12-28 13:17:31 <wumpus> more graphs in the debug window would be nice
 764 2014-12-28 13:20:39 <wumpus> a html UI for node management would be very nice too (I could use that, I run bitcoind on embedded devices, having something like openwrt's luci to manage and show statistics would be great). But  don't make it part of bitcoin core.
 765 2014-12-28 13:21:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I like that ncurses tool.
 766 2014-12-28 13:21:36 <wumpus> of course storage e.g. historical data could happen there, but don't make the ui part of bitcoind
 767 2014-12-28 13:21:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes that one's very nice too
 768 2014-12-28 13:25:27 <wumpus> e.g. https://github.com/azeteki/bitcoind-ncurses ,so another advantage of not having the ui in bitcoind is that various frontends can be used to display the collected statistics data
 769 2014-12-28 13:26:52 <wumpus> there was also a 'statoshi' project at some point that collected various metrics about the node and graphed them, it generates  events  from bitcoind and collects them in a standard graphing/statistics package, forgot the name
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 775 2014-12-28 13:29:20 <wumpus> the only issue was that it wasn't quite lightweight, ie some heavy LAMP-like environment needed to run it
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 780 2014-12-28 13:34:23 <gmaxwell> thats the thing I linked to above.
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 799 2014-12-28 14:08:37 <b_lumenkraft> wondering how app.net could be useful for bitcoin… >> https://developers.app.net >> https://opensource.app.net
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 801 2014-12-28 14:09:39 <hearn> wonder how much they paid for that domain name
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 804 2014-12-28 14:12:32 <b_lumenkraft> hearn: idk. you have to ask @dalton for that ;) >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalton_Caldwell >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/daltoncaldwell
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 806 2014-12-28 14:12:46 <b_lumenkraft> he is working at YC these days
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 833 2014-12-28 14:58:00 <hegemoOn> sipa thank you it fixed it :)
 834 2014-12-28 14:58:24 <hegemoOn>  
 835 2014-12-28 14:58:37 <sipa>  
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 884 2014-12-28 16:52:58 <midomido> anyone here ?
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 898 2014-12-28 17:18:32 <clarinet> ;;Google boot from RAM
 899 2014-12-28 17:18:33 <gribble> RAMBOOT: <http://ramboot.org/>; List of Linux distributions that run from RAM - Wikipedia, the free ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions_that_run_from_RAM>; BootToRAM - Ubuntu Wiki: <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM>
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 903 2014-12-28 17:20:06 <midomido> ;;Google boot from RAM
 904 2014-12-28 17:20:06 <gribble> RAMBOOT: <http://ramboot.org/>; List of Linux distributions that run from RAM - Wikipedia, the free ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions_that_run_from_RAM>; BootToRAM - Ubuntu Wiki: <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM>
 905 2014-12-28 17:20:12 <midomido> Google boot from RAM
 906 2014-12-28 17:20:20 <clarinet> ;;Google LiveCD Customization
 907 2014-12-28 17:20:21 <gribble> LiveCDCustomization - Community Help Wiki: <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization>; LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch - Community Help Wiki: <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch>; ubuntu livecd/dvd | Customize Ubuntu: <http://customizeubuntu.com/ubuntu-livecd/>
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 924 2014-12-28 17:46:47 <midomido> does bitcoin-qt support coinbase/append ?
 925 2014-12-28 17:47:07 <midomido> ;;Google does bitcoin-qt support coinbase/append ?
 926 2014-12-28 17:47:08 <gribble> Getblocktemplate - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate>; Sending from Bitcoin-Qt to Coinbase - Bitcoin Stack Exchange: <http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/13519/sending-from-bitcoin-qt-to-coinbase>; Import private key to coinbase? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange: <http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21553/import-private-key-to-coinbase>
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 958 2014-12-28 19:33:24 <tiyoT> anyone got 5min to talk with me regarding HD (hierarchical wallet)
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 984 2014-12-28 20:45:07 <sipa> heh
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 986 2014-12-28 20:45:47 <sipa> BIP16's switchover was in april 2012, and BIP30's in march 2012?
 987 2014-12-28 20:45:56 <sipa> i thought BIP30 was much later
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 995 2014-12-28 21:08:42 <sipa> spent some time writing this: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/18851/what-bips-are-supported-by-the-standard-client-bitcoin-qt-0-8-6/34213#34213
 996 2014-12-28 21:08:54 <sipa> maybe we want that as some doc/.md file in-repository too
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1006 2014-12-28 21:18:49 <michagogo> Um
1007 2014-12-28 21:18:55 <michagogo> What is that spelling? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/a206b0ea12eb4606b93323268fc81a4f1f952531#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR1270
1008 2014-12-28 21:20:03 <sipa> ?
1009 2014-12-28 21:21:05 <michagogo> "februari"
1010 2014-12-28 21:21:42 <sipa> ah
1011 2014-12-28 21:21:45 <sipa> that's dutch :D
1012 2014-12-28 21:22:03 <michagogo> also, how come https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki doesn't link to the change that implemented it the way BIP30 did?
1013 2014-12-28 21:22:14 <michagogo> sipa: so... why is it in our comment? :P
1014 2014-12-28 21:22:23 <sipa> michagogo: because nobody ever noticed, until you did
1015 2014-12-28 21:22:31 <michagogo> heh
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1017 2014-12-28 21:27:30 <michagogo> er, why does https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5493 say it's open and needs rebase
1018 2014-12-28 21:27:38 <michagogo> There's a commit merging it
1019 2014-12-28 21:28:58 <sipa> michagogo: closed
1020 2014-12-28 21:30:08 <sipa> i assume it may have been left open because wumpus expected further updates to happen still
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1022 2014-12-28 21:30:54 <michagogo> sipa: anyway, looks like that comment isn't in master anymore
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1024 2014-12-28 21:31:29 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1661
1025 2014-12-28 21:34:29 <michagogo> Anyway, I should probably get to bed... it's only 11:34 pm, but in a few weeks I'll start needing to wake up and leave the house by 7ish
1026 2014-12-28 21:34:35 <michagogo> so... goodnight, everyone
1027 2014-12-28 21:35:06 <sipa> so enjoy late night coding while you can :p
1028 2014-12-28 21:35:45 <michagogo> Nah, I don't want to just jump into it all at once
1029 2014-12-28 21:36:09 <michagogo> That's a recipe for being late for my first several days :P
1030 2014-12-28 21:36:34 <michagogo> (I don't drive, so it's not like I can leave 5 minutes late and get there 5 minutes late...)
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1039 2014-12-28 21:56:01 <ThomasZ> am I correct in assuming that changes in ui-strings are not possible in the 0.10 branch?
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1041 2014-12-28 21:58:51 <sipa> in the untranslated ones, or the translated ones?
1042 2014-12-28 21:59:41 <ThomasZ> in a UI file, so translated one.
1043 2014-12-28 21:59:47 <ThomasZ> I just created the pull request for master.
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1046 2014-12-28 22:08:32 <ThomasZ> sipa: other than submitting a merge request via github, anything else needed?
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1049 2014-12-28 22:09:16 <sipa> ThomasZ: nope, thanks!
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1083 2014-12-28 23:10:49 <sipa> wumpus: no post on bitcointalk about rc1?
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